Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[GBJ]

I think I have asked you before, without success, what exactly constitutes 'far left' in your view?

Anyone who identifies as, or displays ideaologies that are Marxist, Communist or Anarchist.

Also includes extreme liberalism.

I think Barna brought up the idea of a horse show once, where the far right were at one end, and the far left were at the opposite. They both had views which were close/similar, but were furthest apart.

 

[blues exile]

Anyone who identifies as, or displays ideaologies that are Marxist, Communist or Anarchist.

Also includes extreme liberalism.

I think Barna brought up the idea of a horse show once, where the far right were at one end, and the far left were at the opposite. They both had views which were close/similar, but were furthest apart.

Too vague, I asked what exactly makes Corbyn far left in your view?

 

[GBJ]

Too vague, I asked what exactly makes Corbyn far left in your view?

Sorry, I thought you were asking in general.

Ok. Off the top of my head

“For the many not the few”, is a Trotsky mantra, no? That’s pretty far left.

He was in favour of returning some
Power to Argentina, regarding the Falklands. Pretty far left.

In favour of Nuclear disarmament. Pretty far left.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Sorry, I thought you were asking in general.

Ok. Off the top of my head

“For the many not the few”, is a Trotsky mantra, no? That’s pretty far left.

He was in favour of returning some
Power to Argentina, regarding the Falklands. Pretty far left.

In favour of Nuclear disarmament. Pretty far left.

'For the few not the many' is the reverse mantra and that sounds a lot more extreme.

Shared power over an island that is close-ish to the other nation and far away from us doesn't sound like a far left policy. Neither USSR or China would be keen on giving up (or sharing) foreign lands.

Nuclear disarmament doesn't sound like a far left policy, again not something USSR or PR of China would have advocated.

 

[blues exile]

'For the few not the many' is the reverse mantra and that sounds a lot more extreme.

Shared power over an island that is close-ish to the other nation and far away from us doesn't sound like a far left policy. Neither USSR or China would be keen on giving up (or sharing) foreign lands.

Nuclear disarmament doesn't sound like a far left policy, again not something USSR or PR of China would have advocated.

So nothing then really. Case dismissed.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

So nothing then really. Case dismissed.[/QUOTE]

I'm not a member and am not privy to what life is like in Corbyn's Labour Party. On the evidence from the seven who have left, if you don't follow the diktats of the ruling clique, life can be made unpleasant and uncomfortable. Uncomfortable enough to, in the end, oblige you to make the heart-rending decision to leave.................leave, or get forced out. As I've explained to AnotherSS , my beef is not so much with the individual policies of the Party, it is with ethos under Corbyn. The seeming unwillingness to accept criticism and dissent from the Party line and the enforcement by millitant activists is what is too left wing for me.
On 7 February 2019, Luciana Berger's Liverpool Wavertree constituency announced that two motions of no confidence in her had been submitted by local members, Her crime? the claim that she "Continually" criticised the Labour Leader. All of a sudden, the hounds were called off.when it started to look bad on the Party.............harassing a heavily pregnant womean. From what I heard Labour MP Ruth George claimed that Israel was funding The Independent Group......a statement she later apologised for her statement.
You can go on believing that this whole anti-semitism row is either just a figment of the imagination in some member's minds, or that it's just a plot to undermine the Party. There is not usually smoke without fire and perhaps you would like to consider, just the possibility that some are blurring their, sometimes justified criticisms and dislike of Israeli politics and jewish people in general.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

So nothing then really. Case dismissed.

I'm not a member and am not privy to what life is like in Corbyn's Labour Party. On the evidence from the seven who have left, if you don't follow the diktats of the ruling clique, life can be made unpleasant and uncomfortable. Uncomfortable enough to, in the end, oblige you to make the heart-rending decision to leave.................leave, or get forced out. As I've explained to AnotherSS , my beef is not so much with the individual policies of the Party, it is with ethos under Corbyn. The seeming unwillingness to accept criticism and dissent from the Party line and the enforcement by millitant activists is what is too left wing for me.
On 7 February 2019, Luciana Berger's Liverpool Wavertree constituency announced that two motions of no confidence in her had been submitted by local members, Her crime? the claim that she "Continually" criticised the Labour Leader. All of a sudden, the hounds were called off.when it started to look bad on the Party.............harassing a heavily pregnant womean. From what I heard Labour MP Ruth George claimed that Israel was funding The Independent Group......a statement she later apologised for her statement.
You can go on believing that this whole anti-semitism row is either just a figment of the imagination in some member's minds, or that it's just a plot to undermine the Party. There is not usually smoke without fire and perhaps you would like to consider, just the possibility that some are blurring their, sometimes justified criticisms and dislike of Israeli politics and jewish people in general.[/QUOTE]



Leading members of the attempt to overthrow Corbyn in 2017 were invited back into the shadow cabinet, so no diktat. Many of the MPs would rather have a different leader but the members have chosen twice. Those many MPs and the members live happily side by side. Berger was on TV and 4 times asked to say she wanted a Labour government and 4 times would not say that.
I'm not sure why you will not accept that Labour members work towards a Labour government and if an MP doesn't it's obvious the members will want them replaced.
Why do you see that as unreasonable?

Please point out what militant activities you are objecting to.

Happy to move onto your other points but those two first if I may.

 

[blues exile]

So nothing then really. Case dismissed.

I'm not a member and am not privy to what life is like in Corbyn's Labour Party. On the evidence from the seven who have left, if you don't follow the diktats of the ruling clique, life can be made unpleasant and uncomfortable. Uncomfortable enough to, in the end, oblige you to make the heart-rending decision to leave.................leave, or get forced out. As I've explained to AnotherSS , my beef is not so much with the individual policies of the Party, it is with ethos under Corbyn. The seeming unwillingness to accept criticism and dissent from the Party line and the enforcement by millitant activists is what is too left wing for me.
On 7 February 2019, Luciana Berger's Liverpool Wavertree constituency announced that two motions of no confidence in her had been submitted by local members, Her crime? the claim that she "Continually" criticised the Labour Leader. All of a sudden, the hounds were called off.when it started to look bad on the Party.............harassing a heavily pregnant womean. From what I heard Labour MP Ruth George claimed that Israel was funding The Independent Group......a statement she later apologised for her statement.
You can go on believing that this whole anti-semitism row is either just a figment of the imagination in some member's minds, or that it's just a plot to undermine the Party. There is not usually smoke without fire and perhaps you would like to consider, just the possibility that some are blurring their, sometimes justified criticisms and dislike of Israeli politics and jewish people in general.[/QUOTE]
People have short memories. During the Blair years the top down control was legendary and the membership was virtually disenfranchised. Now that the membership is exercising its democratic rights, all of a sudden that's wrong and these self entitled MPs start whingeing when all of a sudden they are held accountable by their CLPs.

 

[Colorado Shrimper]

I don't understand why it's such a dreadful thing to call out that this group may be funded by Israel. After all, AIPAC is the single largest source of campaign funds in the USA, why wouldn't they be interested in funding pro-Israel politicians in the UK? Berger doesn't give a damn about the Labour party or her constituents. I look forward to her losing her seat as soon as possible.

 

[blues exile]

I don't understand why it's such a dreadful thing to call out that this group may be funded by Israel. After all, AIPAC is the single largest source of campaign funds in the USA, why wouldn't they be interested in funding pro-Israel politicians in the UK? Berger doesn't give a damn about the Labour party or her constituents. I look forward to her losing her seat as soon as possible.

Berger was formerly a director of Labour Friends of Israel. Tony Blair of course received substantial funds from Lord Levy etc.

 

[GBJ]

'For the few not the many' is the reverse mantra and that sounds a lot more extreme.

Shared power over an island that is close-ish to the other nation and far away from us doesn't sound like a far left policy. Neither USSR or China would be keen on giving up (or sharing) foreign lands.

Nuclear disarmament doesn't sound like a far left policy, again not something USSR or PR of China would have advocated.

So nothing then really. Case dismissed.

It’s quite odd really.

I mean, Corbyn has transcended from being a human being, into a cult (no I haven’t misspelled it, I did mean cult)

I have absolutely no doubt that you’s fully believe that this man is the right way forward. I get that.

The trouble is, and this is the bit that I keep repeating, but is weirdly deflected by you’s... he is not liked by the majority of people in this country. He is only liked by people like yourselves. Can you comprehend that stonewall fact?

There are plenty of reasons why I don’t think this man will get voted into power. And yet, when those reasons are explained to you’s, you’re not interested. You close off, blame the Tories, blame austerity, blame anything and everything, as long as you deflect attention away from your leader. But again, this isn’t just my ramblings, they are widely shared views.

In an election campaign, the following points will crop up, and it will ultimately be his downfall. They are the same reasons that you’d dismiss so quickly.

Terrible Cabinet - doesn’t matter,
Crippling debt policies - doesn’t matter
Links to terrorist organisations - doesn’t exist,
Anti Semitism - doesn’t exist
Dubuous feeling towards NATO - doesn’t matter
Caught lying publically - didn’t happen
Refusal to sing national anthem - doesn’t matter
Hated the EU - didn’t happen
Falklands - doesn’t matter
Numerous resignations from his own party - doesn’t matter

Fortunately for the rest of us who don’t share the above views, there is not enough of you’s to vote this man into power.

That is proven, by the fact that he can’t even win approval ratings, against one of, if not the worst, Tory governments in Parliamentary history.

Now, again, you don’t have to agree with what I’ve said, that’s fine, but you have to, at the very least, acknowledge what I am saying. I speak from a relatively neutral point of view, as I have no horse in this race. I despise all parties as it stands.

I want a better Parliament for this country, and for our futures. That means better leaders & better oppositions. What we have right now, is a country mile below the standard.

Corbyn has gone too far, to reclaim any ground with people like me. And in truth, it’s people like me (who feel partyless), that he should be targeting. Not appeasing people like you’s, who are already aboard the Good Ship Corbyn.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I'm not a member and am not privy to what life is like in Corbyn's Labour Party. On the evidence from the seven who have left, if you don't follow the diktats of the ruling clique, life can be made unpleasant and uncomfortable. Uncomfortable enough to, in the end, oblige you to make the heart-rending decision to leave.................leave, or get forced out. As I've explained to AnotherSS , my beef is not so much with the individual policies of the Party, it is with ethos under Corbyn. The seeming unwillingness to accept criticism and dissent from the Party line and the enforcement by millitant activists is what is too left wing for me.
On 7 February 2019, Luciana Berger's Liverpool Wavertree constituency announced that two motions of no confidence in her had been submitted by local members, Her crime? the claim that she "Continually" criticised the Labour Leader. All of a sudden, the hounds were called off.when it started to look bad on the Party.............harassing a heavily pregnant womean. From what I heard Labour MP Ruth George claimed that Israel was funding The Independent Group......a statement she later apologised for her statement.
You can go on believing that this whole anti-semitism row is either just a figment of the imagination in some member's minds, or that it's just a plot to undermine the Party. There is not usually smoke without fire and perhaps you would like to consider, just the possibility that some are blurring their, sometimes justified criticisms and dislike of Israeli politics and jewish people in general.

Leading members of the attempt to overthrow Corbyn in 2017 were invited back into the shadow cabinet, so no diktat. Many of the MPs would rather have a different leader but the members have chosen twice. Those many MPs and the members live happily side by side. Berger was on TV and 4 times asked to say she wanted a Labour government and 4 times would not say that.
I'm not sure why you will not accept that Labour members work towards a Labour government and if an MP doesn't it's obvious the members will want them replaced.
Why do you see that as unreasonable?

Please point out what militant activities you are objecting to.

Happy to move onto your other points but those two first if I may.[/QUOTE]

Yes, IIUC, five of the of the 20 ministers who resigned, returned to the shadow government (one was later sacked for his views on Europe). Of course not everyone has the courage to resign, some would prefer put up and shut up, accepting that it is better to stay inside the party and fight. I didn't see Luciana Berger's TV appearance so can't comment. As far as militant activities, what about the treatment of Angela Eagle in Wallasey?
Look, if you want to argue that everything is rosy in the Party, Corbyn is a great leader and will become Prime Minister, who am I to persuade you otherwise? Just God help us all when the Corbyn experiment leads us to more years of a Tory government.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Leading members of the attempt to overthrow Corbyn in 2017 were invited back into the shadow cabinet, so no diktat. Many of the MPs would rather have a different leader but the members have chosen twice. Those many MPs and the members live happily side by side. Berger was on TV and 4 times asked to say she wanted a Labour government and 4 times would not say that.
I'm not sure why you will not accept that Labour members work towards a Labour government and if an MP doesn't it's obvious the members will want them replaced.
Why do you see that as unreasonable?

Please point out what militant activities you are objecting to.

Happy to move onto your other points but those two first if I may.

Yes, IIUC, five of the of the 20 ministers who resigned, returned to the shadow government (one was later sacked for his views on Europe). Of course not everyone has the courage to resign, some would prefer put up and shut up, accepting that it is better to stay inside the party and fight. I didn't see Luciana Berger's TV appearance so can't comment. As far as militant activities, what about the treatment of Angela Eagle in Wallasey?
Look, if you want to argue that everything is rosy in the Party, Corbyn is a great leader and will become Prime Minister, who am I to persuade you otherwise? Just God help us all when the Corbyn experiment leads us to more years of a Tory government.[/QUOTE]



I didn't say everything is rosy, I'm trying to discuss your concerns one by one.

Angela Eagle in Wallasey - the window? It was a lie, a window was broken in the building where she has an office, it wasn't her window, there was nothing to indicate who broke the window or why but there was certainly nothing to indicate it was aimed at her, but it was used as if it was. Is that was you are referring to?

 

[blues exile]

Yes, IIUC, five of the of the 20 ministers who resigned, returned to the shadow government (one was later sacked for his views on Europe). Of course not everyone has the courage to resign, some would prefer put up and shut up, accepting that it is better to stay inside the party and fight. I didn't see Luciana Berger's TV appearance so can't comment. As far as militant activities, what about the treatment of Angela Eagle in Wallasey?
Look, if you want to argue that everything is rosy in the Party, Corbyn is a great leader and will become Prime Minister, who am I to persuade you otherwise? Just God help us all when the Corbyn experiment leads us to more years of a Tory government.

I didn't say everything is rosy, I'm trying to discuss your concerns one by one.

Angela Eagle in Wallasey - the window? It was a lie, a window was broken in the building where she has an office, it wasn't her window, there was nothing to indicate who broke the window or why but there was certainly nothing to indicate it was aimed at her, but it was used as if it was. Is that was you are referring to?[/QUOTE]
This is a perfect example of how the MSM constantly distort and falsify events in order to smear the Labour Party and its leader. Obviously the tax evading press barons and media tycoons do not want a Labour government but it would be nice if the general public woke up to the way they are being played.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I don't understand why it's such a dreadful thing to call out that this group may be funded by Israel. After all, AIPAC is the single largest source of campaign funds in the USA, why wouldn't they be interested in funding pro-Israel politicians in the UK? Berger doesn't give a damn about the Labour party or her constituents. I look forward to her losing her seat as soon as possible.

For a start it's a pretty serious allegation of illegal campaign contributions.

It might be the done thing in the US for a foreign power to buy an election but in the UK we only allow that for referendums.

 

[blues exile]

For a start it's a pretty serious allegation of illegal campaign contributions.

It might be the done thing in the US for a foreign power to buy an election but in the UK we only allow that for referendums.

As they are not a political party as yet I don't think they have to account for who is funding them.

 

[Colorado Shrimper]

For a start it's a pretty serious allegation of illegal campaign contributions.

It might be the done thing in the US for a foreign power to buy an election but in the UK we only allow that for referendums.

The only countries 'buying' elections in the US are Israel and Mexico. Israel through AIPAC and Mexico through sending millions of people across the border to vote.

Are we seriously entertaining the trope that 'muh Russia' paid for Brexit and Trump?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

It’s quite odd really.

I mean, Corbyn has transcended from being a human being, into a cult (no I haven’t misspelled it, I did mean cult)

I have absolutely no doubt that you’s fully believe that this man is the right way forward. I get that.

The trouble is, and this is the bit that I keep repeating, but is weirdly deflected by you’s... he is not liked by the majority of people in this country. He is only liked by people like yourselves. Can you comprehend that stonewall fact?

There are plenty of reasons why I don’t think this man will get voted into power. And yet, when those reasons are explained to you’s, you’re not interested. You close off, blame the Tories, blame austerity, blame anything and everything, as long as you deflect attention away from your leader. But again, this isn’t just my ramblings, they are widely shared views.

In an election campaign, the following points will crop up, and it will ultimately be his downfall. They are the same reasons that you’d dismiss so quickly.

Terrible Cabinet - doesn’t matter,
Crippling debt policies - doesn’t matter
Links to terrorist organisations - doesn’t exist,
Anti Semitism - doesn’t exist
Dubuous feeling towards NATO - doesn’t matter
Caught lying publically - didn’t happen
Refusal to sing national anthem - doesn’t matter
Hated the EU - didn’t happen
Falklands - doesn’t matter
Numerous resignations from his own party - doesn’t matter

Fortunately for the rest of us who don’t share the above views, there is not enough of you’s to vote this man into power.

That is proven, by the fact that he can’t even win approval ratings, against one of, if not the worst, Tory governments in Parliamentary history.

Now, again, you don’t have to agree with what I’ve said, that’s fine, but you have to, at the very least, acknowledge what I am saying. I speak from a relatively neutral point of view, as I have no horse in this race. I despise all parties as it stands.

I want a better Parliament for this country, and for our futures. That means better leaders & better oppositions. What we have right now, is a country mile below the standard.

Corbyn has gone too far, to reclaim any ground with people like me. And in truth, it’s people like me (who feel partyless), that he should be targeting. Not appeasing people like you’s, who are already aboard the Good Ship Corbyn.

It's so tedious when people trot out the 'cult' nonsense and then expect you to carry on reading what is likely to be drivel.
How very depressing that people's perception of UK politics is that apathy is seen as the thing to aim for. People are in one of those rare moments where they see a real difference between the two main parties and one side of that divide sees a reason to be enthusiastic. Don't understand enthusiasm? Never mind label those that do a cult and carry on with the way things are if that suits you.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I didn't say everything is rosy, I'm trying to discuss your concerns one by one.

Angela Eagle in Wallasey - the window? It was a lie, a window was broken in the building where she has an office, it wasn't her window, there was nothing to indicate who broke the window or why but there was certainly nothing to indicate it was aimed at her, but it was used as if it was. Is that was you are referring to?

This is a perfect example of how the MSM constantly distort and falsify events in order to smear the Labour Party and its leader. Obviously the tax evading press barons and media tycoons do not want a Labour government but it would be nice if the general public woke up to the way they are being played.[/QUOTE]

Nothing to see here.............move on.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-merseyside-39197750

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Another one... Joan Ryan from Labour now, citing a culture of ‘anti-Jewish racism’