Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[Spaceman Spiff]

The UK needs a strong and fit for purpose Opposition and the current Labour party is not up to the mark. This is a football forum and if this (The PLP) was a team them JC would be sacked for his performance over the last few years.

I’m not sure they will make it to the 50 point mark this season and the manager has shares in the club, so sacking him will be mega difficult

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

The UK needs a strong and fit for purpose Opposition and the current Labour party is not up to the mark. This is a football forum and if this (The PLP) was a team them JC would be sacked for his performance over the last few years.

Really? Since he has been leader membership more than doubled (around 4 times that of the Tories) to make Labour the biggest party in Europe. The one General Election he has fought Labour took 40% (biggest vote increase since 1945) despite it being called at optimum time for the Tories. Since then the Tories have been the first party ever to have been found in contempt of Parliament and their major (only?) policy was voted down by 230 votes - the biggest ever governmental loss.
If Cameron had not introduced the fix term laws this government would have fallen. All this under usual circumstances would be seen as successful opposition.
You can't really judge the opposition by a government's decision to throw all protocol and acceptable behaviour out of the window.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Really? Since he has been leader membership more than doubled (around 4 times that of the Tories) to make Labour the biggest party in Europe. The one General Election he has fought Labour took 40% (biggest vote increase since 1945) despite it being called at optimum time for the Tories. Since then the Tories have been the first party ever to have been found in contempt of Parliament and their major (only?) policy was voted down by 230 votes - the biggest ever governmental loss.
If Cameron had not introduced the fix term laws this government would have fallen. All this under usual circumstances would be seen as successful opposition.
You can't really judge the opposition by a government's decision to throw all protocol and acceptable behaviour out of the window.

Members don’t win elections. Yes, 2017 and all that but actually he’s been found out big time and people outside Latvia (including many of the remainer new young members you allude to) are now having second thoughts or totally abandoning the idea of a Corbyn government of Trots.

 

[blues exile]

Members don’t win elections. Yes, 2017 and all that but actually he’s been found out big time and people outside Latvia (including many of the remainer new young members you allude to) are now having second thoughts or totally abandoning the idea of a Corbyn government of Trots.

Zero evidence to support that claim and this Trots rubbish is not only totally unjustified but tedious beyond belief. To keep repeating rubbish will never make it the truth, the present party leadership is totally in line with mainstream democratic socialism throughout Europe. Do you actually have any idea of what Trotskyism is?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I don't know if these are traditional Labour values, but he's not wrong.

I don't think you will find anyone in the Commons, the most feverent supporters of Israel, who will not condone those acts. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is one of the most intractable problems the world faces. I wouldn't visit Israel due to their policies but that's my individual choice.............I wouldn't visit Iran either..........but I would defend the right of both countries to exist. In the parliamentary parties there are supporters of Israel as well as supporters of Palestinian rights, this is quite normal and correct. However, I wouldn't choose to de-select either for promoting their views.
I think the Labour Party needs to be very careful here. If it wants to continue as a millitant pressure group supporting principally Palestinian rights, that's fine, we know where we stand. However, if it ever wishes to be in power and influence the movement towards middle-east peace, it will require a bi-partisan approach, favouring neither one side over the other. I'm not sure Mr Corbyn has understood this.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Really? Since he has been leader membership more than doubled (around 4 times that of the Tories) to make Labour the biggest party in Europe. The one General Election he has fought Labour took 40% (biggest vote increase since 1945) despite it being called at optimum time for the Tories. Since then the Tories have been the first party ever to have been found in contempt of Parliament and their major (only?) policy was voted down by 230 votes - the biggest ever governmental loss.
If Cameron had not introduced the fix term laws this government would have fallen. All this under usual circumstances would be seen as successful opposition.
You can't really judge the opposition by a government's decision to throw all protocol and acceptable behaviour out of the window.

540 thousand members as a percentage of eligible UK voters is meaningless. Membership doesn't equate to GE wins as past electoral victories can attest to.

I get he appeals, albeit only to his to his core base of supporters but that core base is unrepresentative of the overall voting public.

You really do keep beating this drum of yours and I suppose you have to admire the blind loyalty but while he's at the helm and he continues to lurch the party further and further to the hard left and not deal decisively with the problems within he's about as much use to this country as a chocolate teapot and zero chance of getting to No10

Foot's oratory skills and Kinnocks kind of Labour and he'd be there already but he's taken the party so far left it brings back memories for millions of people they'd much rather forget.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Zero evidence to support that claim and this Trots rubbish is not only totally unjustified but tedious beyond belief. To keep repeating rubbish will never make it the truth, the present party leadership is totally in line with mainstream democratic socialism throughout Europe. Do you actually have any idea of what Trotskyism is?

Man hath needs, Auntie provides:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47312006

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

540 thousand members as a percentage of eligible UK voters is meaningless. Membership doesn't equate to GE wins as past electoral victories can attest to.

I get he appeals, albeit only to his to his core base of supporters but that core base is unrepresentative of the overall voting public.

You really do keep beating this drum of yours and I suppose you have to admire the blind loyalty but while he's at the helm and he continues to lurch the party further and further to the hard left and not deal decisively with the problems within he's about as much use to this country as a chocolate teapot and zero chance of getting to No10

Foot's oratory skills and Kinnocks kind of Labour and he'd be there already but he's taken the party so far left it brings back memories for millions of people they'd much rather forget.

Being the largest party in Europe is obviously an achievement.

If Labour only appeal to their core base when Corbyn is leader then Labour have a core base of 40% - which means the core base has massively increased under Corbyn.

I'm 47 and I only vaguely remember Foot so for under 50's I don't think that comparison has much impact.

I'm not beating a drum I'm replying to a post and my reply is chocka with facts. Facts are sometimes inconvenient but facts are facts.

Please point out what policies in the 2017 manifesto you see as far left.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Members don’t win elections. Yes, 2017 and all that but actually he’s been found out big time and people outside Latvia (including many of the remainer new young members you allude to) are now having second thoughts or totally abandoning the idea of a Corbyn government of Trots.

I don't really know that much about Trotsky - what is it about him that you see as featuring in the current Labour Party?

 

[Bielzibubz]

Being the largest party in Europe is obviously an achievement.

If Labour only appeal to their core base when Corbyn is leader then Labour have a core base of 40% - which means the core base has massively increased under Corbyn.

I'm 47 and I only vaguely remember Foot so for under 50's I don't think that comparison has much impact.

I'm not beating a drum I'm replying to a post and my reply is chocka with facts. Facts are sometimes inconvenient but facts are facts.

Please point out what policies in the 2017 manifesto you see as far left.

Achievement for Corbyn maybe. Still means diddly when it comes to the electorate.

You should know your Labour history. Foot, great orator but his hard left policies and thinking did it for Labour. Kinnock, good overall policies but a very weak leader with lousy oratory skills (apart from his one speech in 85 that saw off the militant tendency within the party)

You repeat the same things over and over again ad nauseam. 40% this, great increase that. It means nothing when it comes to a GE. Membership doesn't equate to public votes.

And speaking of GE's. The 2017 Labour manifesto wasn't far left in its policies for a reason. To appeal to that 40% and to gain that increase in membership. Two years later and he and his second in command old McDonald are seen for exactly what they are and what they stand for.

Unfortunately for Corbyn and for British politics in general he has the political ideals of Foot together with the weakness of Kinnock. Those two things back to back heralded the Thatcher years and Corbyn is fuelling that same fire.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Achievement for Corbyn maybe. Still means diddly when it comes to the electorate.

You should know your Labour history. Foot, great orator but his hard left policies and thinking did it for Labour. Kinnock, good overall policies but a very weak leader with lousy oratory skills (apart from his one speech in 85 that saw off the militant tendency within the party)

You repeat the same things over and over again ad nauseam. 40% this, great increase that. It means nothing when it comes to a GE. Membership doesn't equate to public votes.

And speaking of GE's. The 2017 Labour manifesto wasn't far left in its policies for a reason. To appeal to that 40% and to gain that increase in membership. Two years later and he and his second in command old McDonald are seen for exactly what they are and what they stand for.

Unfortunately for Corbyn and for British politics in general he has the political ideals of Foot together with the weakness of Kinnock. Those two things back to back heralded the Thatcher years and Corbyn is fuelling that same fire.

If people want to keep stating that Corbyn is a failure and Labour unelectable then the same facts will be trotted out to disprove that.

40% of the 2017 vote is the most valid stat we have, polls and gossip mean very little so until the next election 40% will be used a lot of certain people keep trotting out the 'unelectable' guess as if it is a fact.

I'm hardly being unreasonable by reminding you of facts that trump guesses.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Zero evidence to support that claim and this Trots rubbish is not only totally unjustified but tedious beyond belief. To keep repeating rubbish will never make it the truth, the present party leadership is totally in line with mainstream democratic socialism throughout Europe. Do you actually have any idea of what Trotskyism is?

Yet, in France, Corbyn's Labour Party would probably find more in common with Melenchon's 'La France Insoumise' than the traditional French Socialist Party............ask Barna, he knows!

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

If people want to keep stating that Corbyn is a failure and Labour unelectable then the same facts will be trotted out to disprove that.

40% of the 2017 vote is the most valid stat we have, polls and gossip mean very little so until the next election 40% will be used a lot of certain people keep trotting out the 'unelectable' guess as if it is a fact.

I'm hardly being unreasonable by reminding you of facts that trump guesses.

Rolling out an opinion does NOT prove or disprove anything, it may support your point of view.
The issue of winning the next GE is that which party reaches out and engages with the current floating, non aligned voters is the likely winner, and in that, my friend JC is, aside from a youth vote not the leader to draw a swing voter to Labour- he has too much baggage.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Rolling out an opinion does NOT prove or disprove anything, it may support your point of view.
The issue of winning the next GE is that which party reaches out and engages with the current floating, non aligned voters is the likely winner, and in that, my friend JC is, aside from a youth vote not the leader to draw a swing voter to Labour- he has too much baggage.

And that will surely go west when the youth start to understand Labour's real position of supporting Brexit

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Rolling out an opinion does NOT prove or disprove anything, it may support your point of view.
The issue of winning the next GE is that which party reaches out and engages with the current floating, non aligned voters is the likely winner, and in that, my friend JC is, aside from a youth vote not the leader to draw a swing voter to Labour- he has too much baggage.

I wasn't relying on opinion I was relying on facts which is why my reply was short because there are very few facts that are relevant.

Floating voters must have been engaged to hit 40%.

What do you think Tories are doing to appeal to floating voters? Not asking for whataboutery but because they are the floating vote rivals so if that's going to be Labour's undoing then Tories must be doing something there - what is it?

What baggage does he have in 2019 that he didn't have in 2017?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

And that will surely go west when the youth start to understand Labour's real position of supporting Brexit

Labour don't support Brexit. We don't look like having a GE before 29th March so Brexit position should have less impact than in 2017 unless something doesn't go the Tories way in the next 6 weeks.

 

[Amwell Blue]

I think the left wing bit of the Labour manifesto was the renationalisation of water, energy, railways and in time royal mail. Saying that it will cost nothing to the tax payers. I just don't see how that is true. A lot of "older" voters will remember that public ownership doesn't mean improved services just a stronger union voice, which meant large pay rises for their members or more strikes.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I wasn't relying on opinion I was relying on facts which is why my reply was short because there are very few facts that are relevant.

Floating voters must have been engaged to hit 40%.

What do you think Tories are doing to appeal to floating voters? Not asking for whataboutery but because they are the floating vote rivals so if that's going to be Labour's undoing then Tories must be doing something there - what is it?

What baggage does he have in 2019 that he didn't have in 2017?

In a week that 8 MPs leave the party over his leadership and other major issues associated with his personal beliefs you ask what baggage he has in 2019 that he didn't in 2017? Seriously? ?
I only can have 1 vote and I won't vote for JC, nor will I vote Tory so I can't give an answer to the "what is it" question.

 

[blues exile]

Man hath needs, Auntie provides:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47312006

I don't think Hatton's case is relevant, he will probably be reinstated as his tweet was a pretty innocuous comment about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians and I believe we are still allowed to criticise Israel's actions without being found guilty of antisemitism. In any case, Hatton is not likely to be apponited to the House of Lords and made a shadow cabinet minister any time soon. You'll have to do better than that.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I think the left wing bit of the Labour manifesto was the renationalisation of water, energy, railways and in time royal mail. Saying that it will cost nothing to the tax payers. I just don't see how that is true. A lot of "older" voters will remember that public ownership doesn't mean improved services just a stronger union voice, which meant large pay rises for their members or more strikes.

renationalisation is very popular with the public though so for that reason it seems mainstream.

In terms of the cost it's buying an asset. If those industries are paying dividends to shareholders they are making a profit and that can go into public coffers.

Rail franchises will be allowed to end and not renewed, so no compensation needs to be paid.

Anyone who uses Southern Rail or Northern Rail or East Coast won't be scared of stories of BR not being great as they have seen services in recent years as bad as it's possible to get.

In terms of unions - all of those industries are unionised whether in public or private hands.