Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[londonblue]

So more about how bad the Tories are than how good Labour are :winking:

Unfortunately that's just human nature.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Zionism is purely and simply the belief that Israel has a right to exist. How can you be anti-zionist, unless you want Israel wiped from the map? What I have always said is that criticism of the Israeli government and its policies (which is nothing to do with Zionism) is perfectly acceptable so long as you don't expect higher standards from Israel than you expect from your own country.

As far as I'm concerned, being anti-zionist refers to Israel's aggressive foreign policies in the Middle East,especially.I've always believed Israel has a right to exist.

Your definition of Zionism is highly partial.For most people,anti-zionism has everything to do with justifiable criticism of the Israeli government and its foreign and domestic policies and nothing to do with anti-semitism.

 

[londonblue]

As far as I'm concerned, being anti-zionist refers to Israel's aggressive foreign policies in the Middle East,especially.I've always believed Israel has a right to exist.

Your definition of Zionism is highly partial.For most people,anti-zionism has everything to do with justifiable criticism of the Israeli government and its foreign and domestic policies and nothing to do with anti-semitism.

And that's the thing. You're deciding for yourself what Zionism means, and then deciding you don't like it and calling yourself anti-zionist. Israeli foreign policy is nothing to do with Zionism. It can't be since Israeli successive governments from the left and right have all had different foreign policies, but all of those politicians will agree on one thing: that Israel has the right to exist. For example, what would you have called yourself when the Israeli foreign policy came within a whisker of agreeing a peace deal with Arafat?

I have no problem with people discussing and disagreeing with Israeli policies, but it is really important to realise that that has nothing to do with zionism.

 

[Lord Football]

And that's the thing. You're deciding for yourself what Zionism means, and then deciding you don't like it and calling yourself anti-zionist. Israeli foreign policy is nothing to do with Zionism. It can't be since Israeli successive governments from the left and right have all had different foreign policies, but all of those politicians will agree on one thing: that Israel has the right to exist. For example, what would you have called yourself when the Israeli foreign policy came within a whisker of agreeing a peace deal with Arafat?

I have no problem with people discussing and disagreeing with Israeli policies, but it is really important to realise that that has nothing to do with zionism.

The entire core of my left wing political beliefs came from watching, in horror, a children's educational programme on the Holocaust from my sick bed when I was 14 and coming to the reasonable view that facsism, oppression and discrimination has no place in the world and should never raise it's head again.

So, I've been watching this discussion from afar, coz its not a debate I feel comfortable with (see later). I put anti semetism on the same level as racism, so if you call me an anti semite, I am likely to be offended. I'll certainly robustly defend myself.

But, there is a political agenda to blur the lines between anti semetism and anti zionism.

So it is probably worthwhile to understand that an anti semite is someone who shows hostility against Jews, or has prejudices against them. I think we can all agree with that definition.

Anti Zionism, can be defined in many ways. Dictionary.com... "a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann." It can be widened to include Palestine in the definition is Israel, and as TUIB has said further widen to the foreign policy of the Israeli regime. I think its the latter where most people call themselves "anti zionist". (I've actually seen it defined alongside apartheid). So, I think we can agree that the definition varies from source to source.

Of course, it becomes very easy to accuse someone who opposes the Israeli regime as an anti semite and this is in turn can be considered a form of bullying or silencing. I've been on the receiving end of being called an Anti Semite when posting against the bombing of civilians in Gaza - not something that will repeated.

So, actually, accusing someone of being anti semite, when in fact what they are doing is opposing the actions of the regime in Israel, is in itself a form of bullying and silencing.

 

[londonblue]

It can be widened to include Palestine in the definition is Israel, and as TUIB has said further widen to the foreign policy of the Israeli regime. I think its the latter where most people call themselves "anti zionist". (I've actually seen it defined alongside apartheid). So, I think we can agree that the definition varies from source to source.

That's the point. It can't be widened. People change the definition to suit themselves. As I said opposing Israeli policy is fine, but Israeli policy has nothing to do with zionism. So when a jewish person hears you calling yourself an anti-zionist they equate that to you saying you don't agree with Israel's right to exist.

Of course, it becomes very easy to accuse someone who opposes the Israeli regime as an anti semite and this is in turn can be considered a form of bullying or silencing. I've been on the receiving end of being called an Anti Semite when posting against the bombing of civilians in Gaza - not something that will repeated.

So, actually, accusing someone of being anti semite, when in fact what they are doing is opposing the actions of the regime in Israel, is in itself a form of bullying and silencing.

As I said, everyone has the right to oppose any country's policies. What would be considered anti-semitic would be applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation. For clarity I'm not saying anyone on here has done that, but there are people around the world that do do that.

You might find this an interesting read...or you might not. It is the definition of anti-semitism that has been signed up to by the UK government.

IHRA

 

[Lord Football]

My point primarily was... But, there is a political agenda to blur the lines between anti semetism and anti zionism and So, actually, accusing someone of being anti semite, when in fact what they are doing is opposing the actions of the regime in Israel, is in itself a form of bullying and silencing..


It also therefore stands to reason that when real cases of anti semetism happen (and they still do), they get lost in the political mire of false accusations and smear.

I am really not going to get into a debate about how you define Zionism, I've made my point you can either accept it or disagree - but I've been down this path before and it never ends well.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

You can only beat what is in front of you so Corbyn's PMQs performance today was maybe flattered by Theresa May looking very much out of her depth but he was asking the right questions in a direct and calm manner and she was very much rattled.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You can only beat what is in front of you so Corbyn's PMQs performance today was maybe flattered by Theresa May looking very much out of her depth but he was asking the right questions in a direct and calm manner and she was very much rattled.

I thought he was quite right to question our continued sale of arms to Saudi Arabia.After all, as he pointed out, Germany has stopped doing this in light of the war with Yemen and the Saudi's appalling human rights record.JC ,of course,has always pushed for an "ethical foreign policy" (RIP.Robin Cook). Let's hope this will be a major policy plank for the next Labour government.

 

[londonblue]

I thought he was quite right to question our continued sale of arms to Saudi Arabia.After all, as he pointed out, Germany has stopped doing this in light of the war with Yemen and the Saudi's appalling human rights record.JC ,of course,has always pushed for an "ethical foreign policy" (RIP.Robin Cook). Let's hope this will be a major policy plank for the next Labour government.

Surely that can't be true. Saudi Arabia was a member of the UN Human Rights Council between 2009 and 2012. How could they have been elected to that if their record was so bad? :winking:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Surely that can't be true. Saudi Arabia was a member of the UN Human Rights Council between 2009 and 2012. How could they have been elected to that if their record was so bad? :winking:

Surely what's perhaps more significant is why they aren't current members of the HRC?

 

[Bielzibubz]

Politically, any party in power that restricts or bans completely arm sales to what it considers to be oppressive regimes is in effect signing it's own death warrant come the next GE.

UK arms sales to other nation states brings in so much money to the countries coffers any government couldn't hope to actually enact on it's promises and do it without severe financial consequences to the UK economy. And that's nothing compared to the potential job losses associated with such a move.

JC knows it and everyone else with a modicum of common sense knows it. Fine political spin but impossible to put into practice.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Politically, any party in power that restricts or bans completely arm sales to what it considers to be oppressive regimes is in effect signing it's own death warrant come the next GE.

UK arms sales to other nation states brings in so much money to the countries coffers any government couldn't hope to actually enact on it's promises and do it without severe financial consequences to the UK economy. And that's nothing compared to the potential job losses associated with such a move.

JC knows it and everyone else with a modicum of common sense knows it. Fine political spin but impossible to put into practice.

I agree with you in part but Corbyn is a different animal. He says he is a life long pacifist, whether or not thats true is another thing but I can see him pulling the plug on the arms industry in this country regardless of what the cost to the economy or jobs will be. It will be down to principles not the good of the country.

I agree with some of the things he talks about, affordable houseing, the homeless, social equality but my blood runs cold at the thought of other things being implimented, this is one of them. I truely believe that the armed forces and the arms industry will be at serious risk under him, even more so than the armed forces have been under this shower of a govenment.

Its not what he has said recently which is nothing as far as I'm aware, its what might be said in the future. Only time will tell.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I agree with some of the things he talks about, affordable housing, the homeless, social equality but my blood runs cold at the thought of other things being implimented, this is one of them. I truly believe that the armed forces and the arms industry will be at serious risk under him, even more so than the armed forces have been under this shower of a government.

Its not what he has said recently which is nothing as far as I'm aware, its what might be said in the future. Only time will tell.

Me too BA1, he has some very good ideas (as did Foot and A W-Benn) which I would have no confidence in him or an administration led by him successfully implementing while retaining any sort of working budget/economy; however if his ideas get "stolen" by the Tories, as happened with raising the minimum wage, then that is good.
Labour, IMO, need a reliable, credible leader still and to use JC's talent in a cabinet, support role.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Me too BA1, he has some very good ideas (as did Foot and A W-Benn) which I would have no confidence in him or an administration led by him successfully implementing while retaining any sort of working budget/economy; however if his ideas get "stolen" by the Tories, as happened with raising the minimum wage, then that is good.
Labour, IMO, need a reliable, credible leader still and to use JC's talent in a cabinet, support role.

He has never been a minister for a reason. Voted against his own party countless times is only one reason that he never rose through the ranks, so to speak. He has had to surround himself with mavericks if you like, some with talent some, and it doesn't take a genius to work out who, most certainly do not.

Is he capable of running the country? Well his lack of ministerial or cabinet experience probably says no but he has said from day one of being elected that he wants a different kind of politics, I'm still not clear on what that might entail.

Can he be any worse than this current lot? On some issues, hell yeah, on others? Well he just might be on to something but he won't appeal if he attempts a class war, that will be death.And while he has clowns like Abbott in positions of power then he will find it more difficult to convince the majority that he is the right choice for the country.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Politically, any party in power that restricts or bans completely arm sales to what it considers to be oppressive regimes is in effect signing it's own death warrant come the next GE.

UK arms sales to other nation states brings in so much money to the countries coffers any government couldn't hope to actually enact on it's promises and do it without severe financial consequences to the UK economy. And that's nothing compared to the potential job losses associated with such a move.

JC knows it and everyone else with a modicum of common sense knows it. Fine political spin but impossible to put into practice.

If it's possible for Germany to suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia while the war with Yemen continues, why isn't it possible for the UK?

 

[kaymac]

Read Bilezibubz last post very carefully for a clue (in the 2nd paragraph)......

 

[MK Shrimper]

I find it odd that people are happy for innocents to die at the hands of a bloodthirsty dictatorship. The so-called "defence industry" is such a misnomer.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Read Bilezibubz last post very carefully for a clue (in the 2nd paragraph)......

I'm sure there have been "severe financial consequences" to the German economy too.:raspberry:

 

[Lord Football]

Read Bilezibubz last post very carefully for a clue (in the 2nd paragraph)......

Yet we persist with Brexit.

I nearly choked on the irony of his 2nd paragraph.

 

[kaymac]

I'm sure there have been "severe financial consequences" to the German economy too.:raspberry:

Nowhere to the same extent, yah boo sucks to you too..:winking: Sad to say I doubt any country noted for their armaments industry is likely to cease operations when such massive sums of money are involved. In an ideal ‘war-less’ world there would be no need for such destructive implements....