Pre-Match Thread HMRC v SUFC - FINAL hearing on 1st March. DISMISSED

[SHRIMPERPETER]

As if he's going to be there today

 

[Blue43]

I have been to more home and away games than you beleve Do what you think is going to remove Ron .But somehow i cant see him selling up any time soon despite the protests .There has been protessed before calling for him to go .And guess what he is still around .

What difference does it make how many games you go to? I’ve got a season card and go to quite a few away games so not sure what your point is there?

That’s because no where near enough pressure has been applied to Ron due to the fan base split on what to do.

Yes there have been the odd protest here and there but as a whole Ron has been able to sit in his seat in the directors box pretty comfortable without too much heat on him.

The only way for him to feel as uncomfortable as possible is for all fans to unite and apply maximum pressure on him to go, just like Charlton, Blackpool and other clubs have done.

Our situation maybe a bit different to those clubs I mentioned due to FF but anything is possible and we have seen plenty of clubs being bought in recent times.

Every owner has their price!

 

[Strykr]

This thread is exhausting.

 

[meerkat54]

This thread is exhausting.

Completely correct, I’m absolutely drained. But at least we can focus on our game today, a welcome distraction for a few hours!

 

[Fairport]

As if he's going to be there today

It doesn't matter if he is there or not. People protest throughout the world against individuals in power, they don't necessarily have to be directly in front of them.

 

[SHRIMPERPETER]

He won't give a sh!t though

 

[mfurok]

Thank you. And here’s the think about internet “group think”. One persons view isn’t necessarily reality.

As I’m sure I’d mentioned before, our deal was based on a long term holding (20 year plus), not a buy and flip as alluded above, or worse still a debt backed house of cards running out of options…

I’m no expert in the makeup of these funds, there’ll likely be much better people than me who’ve sat on the other side of the table with these things, but generally I understand that they are blended to incorporate different risks etc.

But if someone says “pension fund bad” in a one or two sentence post, we are meant to believe that this is a strong and conclusive argument that scrabbling around for bridging loans, not paying staff etc is better?

What is 100% certain is that the trustees of any pension fund that buys SUFC are not fit for purpose.

 

[Holy Joe]

It might come as some surprise to many that there was actually a strategic plan, financial projections and modelling, contingency planning etc behind the scenes that was part of our work on this for approx a year, and then used during the process of getting a funder.

It doesn't surprise me in the slightest, to get any financial backer interested you've got to show them how they get return. The difficulties I personally have is that it seems the football industry, apart from a few clubs, works at a loss. So when reality hits and the projections from the models aren't being realised, then what?

Many years ago I was speaking to the CeEO of a global building supplies company, they were very acquisitive. He told me bankers, and his own staff, do modelling on every deal. He pretty much ignores them, a slight change to any variable can make a deal look attractive, and there's so much more to running/acquiring a business then a model can well, model!

 

[Holy Joe]

What is 100% certain is that the trustees of any pension fund that buys SUFC are not fit for purpose.

As Carl has mentioned southern hemisphere, it could be one of the big Australian funds. These are massive, much larger than UK schemes, so SUFC, would be a tiny, tiny asset for them, even running costs of a 1m per year would be tiny - and if it was all wrapped up in the housing development, wouldn't even notice it. But I'd still be questioning the exit strategy, and why bother with sufc

 

[euroshrimper]

This thread is exhausting.

Yes exhausting, draining and frustrating because we dont actually know what is really going on so we are all feeling pretty helpless, and to think we possibly have another month to go........
I keep telling myself there are more important things in life but I keep coming back to the part SUFC has played in my life like taking my young children to matches (all grown up now with young children) away days at Cardiff, Wembley, Swansea, Southampton to name just a few engraved in my memory plus the ritual of fish and chips at home games.
Just a few reasons why I am sure SUFC means so much to people like me and that could all end in a matter of weeks as a result of the pure greed of one man........

 

[Carl]

As Carl has mentioned southern hemisphere, it could be one of the big Australian funds. These are massive, much larger than UK schemes, so SUFC, would be a tiny, tiny asset for them, even running costs of a 1m per year would be tiny - and if it was all wrapped up in the housing development, wouldn't even notice it. But I'd still be questioning the exit strategy, and why bother with sufc

Lets just say that they don't entertain deals below what is a mindblowing number for most people, and yes £1m in sterling would be a tiny number for them.

Having said that, the plan was to work towards true profitability rather than just breakeven / continual losses / hope for a good year through player sales and a few plum cup draws, through the strength of the facilities that the city could benefit from over and above a half empty stadium and a community hall.

Also, I know the value of a pound having not always had the life I have now, so making a loss just isn't in me. Knowing the grim reality of finances of the lower levels of professional / higher levels of semi professional football, the plan always had far more than just gate receipts at 3pm on Saturday and a few programmes / scarves / drinks in it.

As for why bother with SUFC, it isn't the only project that is being worked on so it's part of a wider relationship I guess? But the wider plans certainly met their minimum criteria so that is probably why, when it comes down to it.

Again, sorry for being so cryptic!

 

[Holy Joe]

Lets just say that they don't entertain deals below what is a mindblowing number for most people, and yes £1m in sterling would be a tiny number for them.

Having said that, the plan was to work towards true profitability rather than just breakeven / continual losses / hope for a good year through player sales and a few plum cup draws, through the strength of the facilities that the city could benefit from over and above a half empty stadium and a community hall.

Also, I know the value of a pound having not always had the life I have now, so making a loss just isn't in me. Knowing the grim reality of finances of the lower levels of professional / higher levels of semi professional football, the plan always had far more than just gate receipts at 3pm on Saturday and a few programmes / scarves / drinks in it.

As for why bother with SUFC, it isn't the only project that is being worked on so it's part of a wider relationship I guess? But the wider plans certainly met their minimum criteria so that is probably why, when it comes down to it.

Again, sorry for being so cryptic!

Thanks for engaging - part of me is just playing devils advocate, a new owner, even if they pumped money in for say 5 years before changing their mind and putting us up for sale may well be better than what we've currently got. As I've mentioned before in other threads I can clearly see why the flats on long leases with council tenants is very attractive to an investor, and the value of this scheme is big - I'm not convinced on the attractiveness of the football club, especially to owners that may not want to (or are unable to) fund it in the medium to long term - I'd imagine most new owners of clubs take them over with a plan to breakeven - maybe make a profit - I'm not sure, but my gut feel is that few get there. Can you point to any industry surveys/research that would be of interest around the profitability of clubs?

Thanks again for engaging - it's very interesting

 

[Carl]

Thanks for engaging - part of me is just playing devils advocate, a new owner, even if they pumped money in for say 5 years before changing their mind and putting us up for sale may well be better than what we've currently got. As I've mentioned before in other threads I can clearly see why the flats on long leases with council tenants is very attractive to an investor, and the value of this scheme is big - I'm not convinced on the attractiveness of the football club, especially to owners that may not want to (or are unable to) fund it in the medium to long term - I'd imagine most new owners of clubs take them over with a plan to breakeven - maybe make a profit - I'm not sure, but my gut feel is that few get there. Can you point to any industry surveys/research that would be of interest around the profitability of clubs?

Thanks again for engaging - it's very interesting

So the structure and agreed commitment mutually was 20 years, if it was 5 years the yield etc would have to be higher, of of course we'd have had to explore debt finance which just isn't suitable in our opinion - just need to see where we are today.

From a football side of things, clubs are screwed. During the early stages of the takeover of Hungerford, we spoke to the National League about the initially projected shortfall which was a really small amount now I know more - something like £50k - and the response was that they laughed about us being concerned by such a small amount! The financial holes in clubs are horrendous, but some are doing it really well. Thankfully we did really well with building community engagement and in turn sponsorships, plus of course doing common sense stuff that made it easier for people to firstly spend money, and then spend more.

Andy Holt was a great support up at Accrington. It was staggering, when speaking to him, to learn about the ratio of revenue to players costs at clubs. This is the reason for the FFP rules, it spreads throughout football.

I wouldn't be able to point to any surveys, but you could probably guess the financial position of many clubs.

Frankly, football and anciliary sales alone are insufficient to make a profit at the lower levels - my belief (a personal belief) is that clubs that are run in the way they are run now in conference / League 2 (and probably half of League 1) should really be semi pro as they can't justify the costs of running a full time professional club - it takes a number of factors to make it, demographics and supporter base is just one, but the bigger driver IMO is commercial revenue outside of football. That's why getting the stadium build right, by someone who will take the club forward rather than someone who'll sell up soon after, is critical.

 

[Holy Joe]

So the structure and agreed commitment mutually was 20 years, if it was 5 years the yield etc would have to be higher, of of course we'd have had to explore debt finance which just isn't suitable in our opinion - just need to see where we are today.

From a football side of things, clubs are screwed. During the early stages of the takeover of Hungerford, we spoke to the National League about the initially projected shortfall which was a really small amount now I know more - something like £50k - and the response was that they laughed about us being concerned by such a small amount! The financial holes in clubs are horrendous, but some are doing it really well. Thankfully we did really well with building community engagement and in turn sponsorships, plus of course doing common sense stuff that made it easier for people to firstly spend money, and then spend more.

Andy Holt was a great support up at Accrington. It was staggering, when speaking to him, to learn about the ratio of revenue to players costs at clubs. This is the reason for the FFP rules, it spreads throughout football.

I wouldn't be able to point to any surveys, but you could probably guess the financial position of many clubs.

Frankly, football and anciliary sales alone are insufficient to make a profit at the lower levels - my belief (a personal belief) is that clubs that are run in the way they are run now in conference / League 2 (and probably half of League 1) should really be semi pro as they can't justify the costs of running a full time professional club - it takes a number of factors to make it, demographics and supporter base is just one, but the bigger driver IMO is commercial revenue outside of football. That's why getting the stadium build right, by someone who will take the club forward rather than someone who'll sell up soon after, is critical.

Good answer

I've started looking at our match competitors accounts, and putting some snippets in the pre or match threads. Only done half a dozen or so, but not one making a profit so far.

Just listening/watching the Accrington game. Think I heard that gate receipts from todays game v Leeds (a sell out) will be about 10% of their income for the season. Good cup run essential for some clubs - but so unreliable

 

[Carl]

Good answer

I've started looking at our match competitors accounts, and putting some snippets in the pre or match threads. Only done half a dozen or so, but not one making a profit so far.

not a popular answer mind you! There's just a massive misalignment between fan expectations and the reality of the costs of running a club - wages right the way through to facilities, that don't make it work, unless different thinking is applied. Not massively different, but just looking at what the common factors are of clubs that have risen through the leagues sustainably.

 

[Medway Blue]

I liked much of what you said about your plans for the stadium @Carl. Making it a venue that the city can be proud of and make use of 365 days per year - references to making the facilities fit for the 21st Century with VR facilities, being creative with catering, etc. I'm not convinced we're getting that with Ron and my feeling has always been that the stadium is secondary to the housing - almost a nuisance, in fact, and that opportunities to make the most of it in the plans are being missed.

I suspect, though, that the sort of changes that would be needed might need another resubmission, leading to a longer indeterminate amount of time at an almost-condemned RH with no ancilliary facilities and making big losses. I suspect that Ron is open to discussions of investment but only from a very narrow group of people, unfortunately - i.e. people in the property development game who can invest for a slice of the pie and provide funds for the club and the development, but accepting RM's/the council's vision as is and without making any changes to it.

 

[WestStandBlue]

Well the protest outside the ground from about 20 youths dressed in fake stoneys 'getting the bade in' was embarrassing to see. Alongside the very distasteful stickers they have put up of Ron Martin

 

[Evening Echo]

PROTESTING Southend United supporters chanted for chairman Ron Martin to sell the club during a pre-match protest at Roots Hall this afternoon.

Read more on this story


Help with Echo links

 

[Kat_r]

I liked much of what you said about your plans for the stadium @Carl. Making it a venue that the city can be proud of and make use of 365 days per year - references to making the facilities fit for the 21st Century with VR facilities, being creative with catering, etc. I'm not convinced we're getting that with Ron and my feeling has always been that the stadium is secondary to the housing - almost a nuisance, in fact, and that opportunities to make the most of it in the plans are being missed.

I suspect, though, that the sort of changes that would be needed might need another resubmission, leading to a longer indeterminate amount of time at an almost-condemned RH with no ancilliary facilities and making big losses. I suspect that Ron is open to discussions of investment but only from a very narrow group of people, unfortunately - i.e. people in the property development game who can invest for a slice of the pie and provide funds for the club and the development, but accepting RM's/the council's vision as is and without making any changes to it.

The council need the flats built too.

A potential buyer could purchase the stadium and club and turn the stadium into a regional hub/attraction but I doubt it given our proximity to London

 

[Boreham Blue]

Just wondering if someone can do the maths and understands current interest rates on bridging loans - from a business perspective Ron knows that the embargo won’t be cleared until the next court date and so a loan to pay the HMRC won’t achieve anything until then. So if he lines one up surely he’ll only want one at the last possible moment. What would be the cost from now until the hearing date of having what he would consider an unnecessary loan?

I can’t see Ron selling anything until his big prize is secure. At that point I’m sure he’ll happily sell the club. I wouldn’t even be surprised if the deal is already in place with a new buyer or consortium but will only happen when a key milestone is achieved in the wider development.