Pre-Match Thread HMRC v SUFC - FINAL hearing on 1st March. DISMISSED

[seve le six]

Has a club ever been promoted and had to start the next league up with a 10 point deduction ? Must be a rare scenario.

 

[seve le six]

If we did win the play offs, couldn't the EFL refuse us promotion?

 

[hlane17]

Your loss! You'll miss Ron's statement on the 27th of this month, in which he states he has

1. paid off HMRC
2. written off all debts owed to him and his myriad of companies
3. sold the club to a dream consortium led by SVC, with Stan as chairman and TL remaining as CEO and a cash injection in the tens of millions
4. secured all permits and breaking ground has commenced
5. by way of sincere apology, handed Roots Hall, and therefore profits from the land sale when housing development commences AND ownership of the FF development, to the club

If this happened I'd be wondering if Martin was replaced by a lizard from outer space

 

[teabee1]

If we did win the play offs, couldn't the EFL refuse us promotion?

Getting a little ahead of ourselves me thinks…

 

[Supa Shrimpa]

If this happened I'd be wondering if Martin was replaced by a lizard from outer space

The Godzilla Stadium would certainly be different !

 

[teabee1]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but should the decision go against us are there any grounds for appeal to a higher court?

 

[Linda Loan Shark]

Apologies if this has already been covered, but should the decision go against us are there any grounds for appeal to a higher court?

I dont think Macclesfield could when it happened to them.

I dont really understand what we would be appealing for. We have had several extensions where Ron has said he will pay and the HMRC have given him a last chance. We have had plenty of warnings and notices to pay.

 

[basilrobbie]

Absolutely- I was just answering the question.
It was interesting to hear Firth’s view that what Ron meant by that he would not let the club be wound up is that if all else fails he would seek through the court administration- ensure the club survives and better than being wound up.

Kent, the administrators job is to secure the best deal for creditors though, isn't it? Which might include liquidation (which is what Derby fans were so concerned about). Admin. is NOT an easy option, albeit it greatly diminishes RM's control over what happens.

 

[overseas shrimper]

I dont think Macclesfield could when it happened to them.

I dont really understand what we would be appealing for. We have had several extensions where Ron has said he will pay and the HMRC have given him a last chance. We have had plenty of warnings and notices to pay.

Just for clarity, it isn't HMRC that have given us a last chance. Ultimately, it was the judge. It will also be down to the judge on March 1st, and not HMRC, to decide our fate.

 

[TJC]

Just for clarity, it isn't HMRC that have given us a last chance. Ultimately, it was the judge. It will also be down to the judge on March 1st, and not HMRC, to decide our fate.

From Annas comments, she suggested we were lucky last time not to be wound up. What hope on the 1st of getting lucky again. Seems we need to at least pay 50%+ and negotiate the rest.
Also was mentioned there was another creditor in court too. While HMRC wanted us wound up, the other party didn't. Any idea who the other was?

 

[Shrimper]

The other creditor was probably Ron

 

[kentblues]

Kent, the administrators job is to secure the best deal for creditors though, isn't it? Which might include liquidation (which is what Derby fans were so concerned about). Admin. is NOT an easy option, albeit it greatly diminishes RM's control over what happens.

We have no assets to sell so liquidation will deliver zero or near to for creditors.
In administration there are probably demonstrably people who would be interested in buying the club at a value greater than the value of its assets. And hence provide at least some relief for creditors- indeed I think a league rule means that football creditors would need to be paid in full. So potentially full relief for them. Note: this responsibility falls on the new owners- football creditors won’t get favourable treatment for the administrator. (someone will tell me if my recollection is wrong).
Of course, we have heard from many on the zone there is a queue of potential buyers. No doubt evidence of this would be presented to the court.
Nonetheless Ron can’t any longer himself put us into administration the court has to be persuaded to rule for it. I do think administration rather than liquidation is the realistic worst case.
Actually I still think it most likely neither will happen.
My opinion of course.

 

[GBJ]

The Godzilla Stadium would certainly be different !

A cracking name for a stadium, although I still prefer my idea of naming FF… The Thunderdome

 

[Hooly]

Also was mentioned there was another creditor in court too. While HMRC wanted us wound up, the other party didn't. Any idea who the other was?

As a point of interest in a winding up process basically any creditor can come forward & take control of the petition even if the HMRC debt is paid in full. Whether that can happen after an adjournment I'm not sure but it's a term referred to as "substitution". Until HMRC finally withdraw their petition from the court record then this could happen.
Doesn't answer the question but adds a bit of context. TBH I'm surprised a previous winding up has never been hijacked like this as let's face it RM has p*ssed off enough people over the years.

 

[overseas shrimper]

A cracking name for a stadium, although I still prefer my idea of naming FF… The Thunderdome

I'd prefer The Field of Dreams.

Build it and they will ***.

 

[kentblues]

Just for clarity, it isn't HMRC that have given us a last chance. Ultimately, it was the judge. It will also be down to the judge on March 1st, and not HMRC, to decide our fate.

Absolutely correct and for further clarity the judge on 1st is free to make whatever decision is appropriate based on the evidence presented to the court at that time (in a legal sense marking it “final” does not bind the court on 1st- although it passes on a strong sentiment should nothing at all have changed that for sure can only be unhelpful…)

 

[Realist]

Excuse My ignorance but is the hearing taken in magistrates court? Can the general public go if they wanted to and witness it ?

 

[MK Shrimper]

Excuse My ignorance but is the hearing taken in magistrates court? Can the general public go if they wanted to and witness it ?

Believe so.

 

[RHB]

This is a High Court Case and if the last few times are anything to go by, you have to ask for, and get, permission to attend.

 

[basilrobbie]

We have no assets to sell so liquidation will deliver zero or near to for creditors.
In administration there are probably demonstrably people who would be interested in buying the club at a value greater than the value of its assets. And hence provide at least some relief for creditors- indeed I think a league rule means that football creditors would need to be paid in full. So potentially full relief for them. Note: this responsibility falls on the new owners- football creditors won’t get favourable treatment for the administrator. (someone will tell me if my recollection is wrong).
Of course, we have heard from many on the zone there is a queue of potential buyers. No doubt evidence of this would be presented to the court.
Nonetheless Ron can’t any longer himself put us into administration the court has to be persuaded to rule for it. I do think administration rather than liquidation is the realistic worst case.
Actually I still think it most likely neither will happen.
My opinion of course.

You are far closer to it than me and your summary seems quite logical.

On creditors, of course the No.1 creditor in any administration is the Administrator him/herself and it doesn't come cheap. if it does come to that, I hope and pray you don't get Begbie's or Quantuma.

When my club was going through this, we ended up in Receivership, which is of course a different animal, as their job was to prepare the club for sale. In our case, the club owner was in trouble for failure to comply with previous Court Orders, rather than non-payment of tax.

I too, will be interested in how many real alternative owners there are out there. It's a loss-making enterprise which doesn't own its own premises, which doesn't help. But if you get someone with local ties and deep pockets who is willing to lose money initially, you might get a decent outcome.

Final point on HMRC - they aren't always as bullish in private as they are in public. They talked big about Derby, for example, and then accepted what I thought was a pretty poor deal for the national taxpayer.