Pre-Match Thread HMRC v SUFC - FINAL hearing on 1st March. DISMISSED

[Realist]

This is a High Court Case and if the last few times are anything to go by, you have to ask for, and get, permission to attend.

I want to go lol.

 

[undercovershrimper]

It will be heard at the Rolls Building
7 Rolls Buildings,
Fetter Lane
London
EC4A 1NL

In terms of attendance I am not sure, I believe @Jai went to the last hearing so he would be a good person to ask

 

[kentblues]

You are far closer to it than me and your summary seems quite logical.

On creditors, of course the No.1 creditor in any administration is the Administrator him/herself and it doesn't come cheap. if it does come to that, I hope and pray you don't get Begbie's or Quantuma.

When my club was going through this, we ended up in Receivership, which is of course a different animal, as their job was to prepare the club for sale. In our case, the club owner was in trouble for failure to comply with previous Court Orders, rather than non-payment of tax.

I too, will be interested in how many real alternative owners there are out there. It's a loss-making enterprise which doesn't own its own premises, which doesn't help. But if you get someone with local ties and deep pockets who is willing to lose money initially, you might get a decent outcome.

Final point on HMRC - they aren't always as bullish in private as they are in public. They talked big about Derby, for example, and then accepted what I thought was a pretty poor deal for the national taxpayer.

Thing is football clubs aren't really valued as a business. If they were you would be looking at X times EBIT as a valuation or (as very few make money) a low (very) multiple of turnover. And anything is only worth what people are prepared to pay- which again for football clubs often doesn't relate to the underlying value (often in a positive way).

I would have thought an administrator will more likely get paid from proceeds than the receiver if the winding up option is taken? Debt free, crowds of 6k potential for far more, if the new buyer could get satisfactory arrangements re lease of RH initially then FF stadium subsequently you might be surprised by what the club could be sold for.

Of course they may want to buy the FF stadium- actually this would complicate things- and the administrator is likely to eye a quick sale that is as clean as possible...yes they are there to max sale revenue but also weigh in risk, cost of the process that dilutes benefit to creditors, and time taken to give relief to creditors.

Of course my speculation/opinion.

BTW as it happens back in the day I worked for a insolvency practice for a period (Cork Gully as was).

 

[kentblues]

It will be heard at the Rolls Building
7 Rolls Buildings,
Fetter Lane
London
EC4A 1NL

In terms of attendance I am not sure, I believe @Jai went to the last hearing so he would be a good person to ask

If you are a shareholder however small I imagine you have a right to attend?

 

[Realist]

It will be heard at the Rolls Building
7 Rolls Buildings,
Fetter Lane
London
EC4A 1NL

In terms of attendance I am not sure, I believe @Jai went to the last hearing so he would be a good person to ask

Thanks for the info , @Jai are you going again ?

 

[undercovershrimper]

If you are a shareholder however small I imagine you have a right to attend?

I really don't know, the courtrooms are not very big and spaces for members of the public are limited to about a dozen

 

[Mad Cyril]

If you are a shareholder however small I imagine you have a right to attend?

I am 6'2"

 

[kentblues]

I am 6'2"

What a co-incidence...so I am....what a small world...

 

[undercovershrimper]

What a co-incidence...so I am....what a small world...

everything looks small from that high up!

 

[basilrobbie]

It will be heard at the Rolls Building
7 Rolls Buildings,
Fetter Lane
London
EC4A 1NL

In terms of attendance I am not sure, I believe @Jai went to the last hearing so he would be a good person to ask

It may not be relevant, but Oyston v Belokon was heard at the Rolls, and there were no restrictions on public entry back then (2017). I know, I was court scribe on around 15/16 days worth of hearings.

There were a couple of instances where the Oyston's tried to have the public excluded as there were financial issues under discussion. But the Judge ruled that it was in the public interest that we be allowed to stay.

 

[Gridelet's contact lens]

I see that Southend Council has updated its website re Fossetts: I have noted in Bold the bit that interests me.

Update on Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm developments – Southend-on-Sea City Council

Update on Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm developments general summary.

www.southend.gov.uk

It states:

We want to see a thriving and competitive football club that the city can be proud of. We know how important the club is to the city and local community. It is an important part of our identity as a place. It is an important part of our history and our future.

Over many years the council has been engaged in and supportive of the plans for the developments at Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm and the move to a new stadium.

This includes in our role as the local planning authority, and also in a separate role relating to proposed housing transactions and projects at Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm. Although this would help to enable the stadium construction, it is important to be clear that the council is not involved in the financing or construction of the stadium.

The council is also not involved at all in the management of Southend United Football Club or the financial affairs of the club or any connected parties either as part of the property transactions or otherwise.

Following the recent BBC Essex article and comments within supporter forums, we feel as a public organisation that it is important to be open and clear about these matters.

The council has been and remains committed to the delivery of high-quality housing for local people across the city and we remain in discussions regarding the developments at Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm. We also remain supportive of the football club, which we know is so loved by so many.

Summary of current planning position​

The club has full planning permission for a new stadium and outline planning permission for the housing element. A reserved matters application has been submitted seeking full planning permission in relation to some of the housing elements.

There is also a standalone application seeking full planning permission for a smaller new stadium. However, we don’t yet have all the information required from the applicant to determine either application. The applicant is aware of what is required and discussions are ongoing.

Whilst target determination dates are set at validation, it is normal practice for these to be extended where this is mutually agreed between the applicant and the local planning authority.

Summary of proposed arrangements for Roots Hall and Fossetts​

• Southend United Football Club seek planning permission for both developments
• if planning permission is granted, Citizen Housing LLP will facilitate the funding of both sites. The council will not be required to invest any capital in the development of either site, but its covenant strength enables the financing of the transactions, probably by a pension investment fund
• the council will be granted long leases over the 502 homes at Roots Hall and c.850 of the new homes constructed at Fossetts Farm which are the subject of the reserved matters planning application
• the rent payable by the council to the pension investment fund will be much lower than the rents the council will receive from all the homes therefore enabling the council to benefit from a long-term sustainable income stream from the completed homes. The council will have the option to buy the freehold for £1 at the end of the various leases
• the council will arrange the management of the homes and will sublet the individual homes; 30% at affordable rents and the balance at market rents
• the council will not be involved in the stadium construction, but a legal framework will ensure that the existing stadium at Roots Hall remains operational until the new stadium is opened. The construction of the stadium at Fossetts Farm is also linked to the delivery of housing to ensure that housing cannot be delivered alone

 

[damien]

Very clear and concise update.

So the delays with SBC, cleverly disguised by Ron are actually due to the application for a smaller stadium allowing more housing?

That's how I read that

 

[Mad Cyril]

Very clear and concise update.

So the delays with SBC, cleverly disguised by Ron are actually due to the application for a smaller stadium allowing more housing?

That's how I read that

That is the glass half full perspective.

I like to think that more fans will be able to live near the stadium.

 

[pottster]

Very clear and concise update.

So the delays with SBC, cleverly disguised by Ron are actually due to the application for a smaller stadium allowing more housing?

That's how I read that

It's an old planning trick. Developers promise new schools, doctors surgeries etc to get approval. Then when it starts they get left off and replaced with more houses

 

[kentblues]

I see that Southend Council has updated its website re Fossetts: I have noted in Bold the bit that interests me.

Update on Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm developments – Southend-on-Sea City Council

Update on Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm developments general summary.

www.southend.gov.uk

It states:

We want to see a thriving and competitive football club that the city can be proud of. We know how important the club is to the city and local community. It is an important part of our identity as a place. It is an important part of our history and our future.

Over many years the council has been engaged in and supportive of the plans for the developments at Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm and the move to a new stadium.

This includes in our role as the local planning authority, and also in a separate role relating to proposed housing transactions and projects at Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm. Although this would help to enable the stadium construction, it is important to be clear that the council is not involved in the financing or construction of the stadium.

The council is also not involved at all in the management of Southend United Football Club or the financial affairs of the club or any connected parties either as part of the property transactions or otherwise.

Following the recent BBC Essex article and comments within supporter forums, we feel as a public organisation that it is important to be open and clear about these matters.

The council has been and remains committed to the delivery of high-quality housing for local people across the city and we remain in discussions regarding the developments at Roots Hall and Fossetts Farm. We also remain supportive of the football club, which we know is so loved by so many.

Summary of current planning position​

The club has full planning permission for a new stadium and outline planning permission for the housing element. A reserved matters application has been submitted seeking full planning permission in relation to some of the housing elements.

There is also a standalone application seeking full planning permission for a smaller new stadium. However, we don’t yet have all the information required from the applicant to determine either application. The applicant is aware of what is required and discussions are ongoing.

Whilst target determination dates are set at validation, it is normal practice for these to be extended where this is mutually agreed between the applicant and the local planning authority.

Summary of proposed arrangements for Roots Hall and Fossetts​

• Southend United Football Club seek planning permission for both developments
• if planning permission is granted, Citizen Housing LLP will facilitate the funding of both sites. The council will not be required to invest any capital in the development of either site, but its covenant strength enables the financing of the transactions, probably by a pension investment fund
• the council will be granted long leases over the 502 homes at Roots Hall and c.850 of the new homes constructed at Fossetts Farm which are the subject of the reserved matters planning application
• the rent payable by the council to the pension investment fund will be much lower than the rents the council will receive from all the homes therefore enabling the council to benefit from a long-term sustainable income stream from the completed homes. The council will have the option to buy the freehold for £1 at the end of the various leases
• the council will arrange the management of the homes and will sublet the individual homes; 30% at affordable rents and the balance at market rents
• the council will not be involved in the stadium construction, but a legal framework will ensure that the existing stadium at Roots Hall remains operational until the new stadium is opened. The construction of the stadium at Fossetts Farm is also linked to the delivery of housing to ensure that housing cannot be delivered alone

Well firstly just shows how remembering to focus on the important stuff on here as well as rumours, however exciting, can get noticed and deliver a response/information. And actually whilst some of this has not perhaps been validated/believed/fully understood (delete as appropriate) previously from disparate club communications I think coming from SBC actually in a few areas gives some comfort.

Of course, they point out that the decision is outstanding as they are waiting for information from glorious leader. So back to him & particular to confirm that this is not holding up any bridging loans. Further, these things are not as clear as might seem- one party asks for information, other party provides, goal posts move or not, further or different information is required, and so on and so forth. So it would nonetheless be quite an assumption to believe the delays are all down to Ron (to be fair- which I know is strictly verboten). Anyhow, SBC are clear it's not their fault... (hold the front page..)

Edit: BTW does it suggest that the original approval means we can get on with building the first three sides as the amendment covers main stand and amended housing element? Gives that impression?

 

[londonblue]

What a co-incidence...so I am....what a small world...

Maybe for you, but I'm 5'6" and it looks pretty big from down here.

 

[kentblues]

Very clear and concise update.

So the delays with SBC, cleverly disguised by Ron are actually due to the application for a smaller stadium allowing more housing?

That's how I read that

What? Have you been at the back? :-)
We all know that the stadium is to be 16/17K capacity (can't remember which) not the originally approved 21K- because as we know the plans have changed including no longer a 100 room hotel and instead an additional circa 50 housing units.
Nothing new, nothing bad and in particular no opportunity for any negative rumours :-)

 

[londonblue]

Well firstly just shows how remembering to focus on the important stuff on here as well as rumours, however exciting, can get noticed and deliver a response/information. And actually whilst some of this has not perhaps been validated/believed/fully understood (delete as appropriate) previously from disparate club communications I think coming from SBC actually in a few areas gives some comfort.

Of course, they point out that the decision is outstanding as they are waiting for information from glorious leader. So back to him & particular to confirm that this is not holding up any bridging loans. Further, these things are not as clear as might seem- one party asks for information, other party provides, goal posts move or not, further or different information is required, and so on and so forth. So it would nonetheless be quite an assumption to believe the delays are all down to Ron (to be fair- which I know is strictly verboten). Anyhow, SBC are clear it's not their fault... (hold the front page..)

Edit: BTW does it suggest that the original approval means we can get on with building the first three sides as the amendment covers main stand and amended housing element? Gives that impression?

And in fairness to Ron I would rather he took his eye off that particular ball until he's sorted out the finance. Without that, planning permission means nothing.

 

[tommy tucker]

As i have said before With southend city council its sadly old boys who get paid countless thousends of pounds For doing sweet FA .They have never made a fuss about the roads before There are countless cars and delivey vans going in and out of weightrose .The same could be said about B N Q and they have never made a fuss before .Seems to me its stinks of the old boys act .

 

[Cricko]

The council statement is them firing back at RM for his "fair wind" remarks. It is unusual for the council to come out with this kind of statement off their own back.