Hard or Soft Brexit?

[Yorkshire Blue]

So what was the point of the referendum? If they aren't going to abide by the result, it was a waste of time.

It was to give the NHS £350m a week wasn't it?

 

[Benfleet A1]

It was to give the NHS £350m a week wasn't it?

And send all the immigrants back.

 

[londonblue]

And send all the immigrants back.

And then let them all back in again when we're forced to accept free movement of people as part of the trade deal.

 

[southendkid]

So what was the point of the referendum? If they aren't going to abide by the result, it was a waste of time.

Who said they aren't going to abide by the result?

 

[callan]

So what was the point of the referendum? If they aren't going to abide by the result, it was a waste of time.

I voted leave, however can still see the merits of putting the advisory decision of the referendum, before parliament.

I don't doubt that there will be side effects on today's decision, mainly creating a bigger divide between leave and remain, and may even force the PM into calling an early GE.

Ultimately Brexit I still believe will happen, and as YB points out will need to go before the Supreme court who may be more sensitive towards public opinion.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

So what was the point of the referendum? If they aren't going to abide by the result, it was a waste of time.

I think this will just make the government have to get their **** together as they will need to be able to show that things will run smoothly in order to get the MPs to sign it off. The MPs are aware of the referendum result but this way they are accountable for the quality of the transition rather than just 'Brexit means Brexit' and set a random date on it. This may well mean that May will need to shunt Liam Fox, Boris Johnson and David Davies to one side and appoint people who have a clue.
IMO this is the safety net that we needed but doesn't mean the referendum result will be ignored.

 

[Beefy]

So what was the point of the referendum? .

To guarantee the sovereignty of Parliament against unelected bureaucrats wasn't it? Today's news should be applauded by all Brexiters.

The significance of this isn't that MPs are going to overturn Brexit. They'll all be mindful of being seen to respect the views and wishes of their constituents. But it means that the Government will be open to scrutiny and their approach will be open to debate. As it should be.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I voted leave, however can still see the merits of putting the advisory decision of the referendum, before parliament.

I don't doubt that there will be side effects on today's decision, mainly creating a bigger divide between leave and remain, and may even force the PM into calling an early GE.

Ultimately Brexit I still believe will happen, and as YB points out will need to go before the Supreme court who may be more sympathetic towards public opinion.

If you believe in the rule of law the Supreme Court should pay no regard to public opinion.

If you believe in Parliamentary Sovereignty this is Parliament's decision and not Government's anyway.

And if you believe in democracy an early general election is required to give a proper mandate to this government, although tactically as a Remainer it would be better if this wasn't until at least the second half of 2017 as the current opposition is a shambles and the effects of inflation are only just starting to be felt so those that voted to Leave haven't yet really felt the pain of their folly.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Before everyone starts wetting themselves, lets wait to see how the governments appeal gets on at the Supreme Court first.

 

[londonblue]

Before everyone starts wetting themselves, lets wait to see how the governments appeal gets on at the Supreme Court first.

As I said, my view is that that decision will be largely irrelevant. All it will mean (assuming they agree with today's decision) is that Parliament will be forced to vote. My opinion is that, even though about 400-odd MPs voted to remain, they will effectively reverse their original votes and vote to leave in order to go along with public opinion.

I personally don't believe a GE will make any difference either because IMO all roads will still lead to Brexit: either we have a GE now, and the tories win because the opposition is a shambles or we wait until (as YB says) the 2nd half of 2017, and the tories still win because the opposition are still a shambles.

Be patient Brexiters, whatever happens you'll still get what you want...

 

[callan]

If you believe in the rule of law the Supreme Court should pay no regard to public opinion.

If you believe in Parliamentary Sovereignty this is Parliament's decision and not Government's anyway.

And if you believe in democracy an early general election is required to give a proper mandate to this government, although tactically as a Remainer it would be better if this wasn't until at least the second half of 2017 as the current opposition is a shambles and the effects of inflation are only just starting to be felt so those that voted to Leave haven't yet really felt the pain of their folly.

I can agree pretty much with all that, especially the last part where you point out (and rightly so) that we haven't felt any pain post the referendum decision to leave...as to whether the decision to leave constitute's success or folly, will not be able to be measured for a good time to come.

In regards the Supreme courts decision...do you not think there will be any sensitivity towards Public opinion?

 

[southendkid]

I can agree pretty much with all that, especially the last part where you point out (and rightly so) that we haven't felt any pain post the referendum decision to leave...as to whether the decision to leave constitute's success or folly, will not be able to be measured for a good time to come.

In regards the Supreme courts decision...do you not think there will be any sensitivity towards Public opinion?

What is public opinion on this though? This isn't a ruling on Brexit, it's a ruling on Brexit going through parliament. It's very unlikely MPs will stop it completely, Brexit will still happen. It's more a question of if the Tories should be allowed to just do whatever they want with Brexit without any other MPs getting a say.

 

[Beefy]

I can agree pretty much with all that, especially the last part where you point out (and rightly so) that we haven't felt any pain post the referendum decision to leave...as to whether the decision to leave constitute's success or folly, will not be able to be measured for a good time to come.

In regards the Supreme courts decision...do you not think there will be any sensitivity towards Public opinion?

The media will try to make sure that there is (did you see the Mail Online's disgraceful headline earlier that they've since edited?) but there shouldn't be. The High Court stressed that it wasn't making a verdict on Brexit, it's a verdict on constitutional law.

 

[Ricky Otto]

It's difficult to know how to feel about this being a remainer but also a believer in democracy. I think not listening to the result of the referendum would be wrong and if I were one of these MP's who voted remain then I would vote leave so that the public vote was upheld. As a remainer I accept the result and now expect brexit. The terms of brexit are my concern now and I hope that the fact the public vote was so close would be taken into account in negotiations. Soft brexit for me, honour the vote but don't **** the country

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I can agree pretty much with all that, especially the last part where you point out (and rightly so) that we haven't felt any pain post the referendum decision to leave...as to whether the decision to leave constitute's success or folly, will not be able to be measured for a good time to come.

In regards the Supreme courts decision...do you not think there will be any sensitivity towards Public opinion?

Absolutely not.

It's not a matter of public opinion who has authority to serve the notice but a matter of law.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

It's difficult to know how to feel about this being a remainer but also a believer in democracy. I think not listening to the result of the referendum would be wrong and if I were one of these MP's who voted remain then I would vote leave so that the public vote was upheld. As a remainer I accept the result and now expect brexit. The terms of brexit are my concern now and I hope that the fact the public vote was so close would be taken into account in negotiations. Soft brexit for me, honour the vote but don't **** the country

It's absolutely a victory for democracy.

It's a verdict that re-establishes Parliamentary Sovereignty. Parliament must decide and Parliament must oversee.

The government has no mandate for hard Brexit. The referendum didn't specify hard Brexit if Leave won and the Conservatives were elected on a manifesto promise that included remaining part of the Single Market. If May wants to take us out of the Single Market then she needs a mandate to do so, whether by election or a second referendum asking us on that particular question.

 

[pottster]

As far as I was aware that we couldn't actually negotiate the terms with the eu until we have initiated article 50?

 

[Benfleet A1]

As far as I was aware that we couldn't actually negotiate the terms with the eu until we have initiated article 50?

Don't you think it would be a good idea to actually know what is going to be negoiated in the first place?

 

[callan]

What is public opinion on this though? This isn't a ruling on Brexit, it's a ruling on Brexit going through parliament. It's very unlikely MPs will stop it completely, Brexit will still happen. It's more a question of if the Tories should be allowed to just do whatever they want with Brexit without any other MPs getting a say.

There was certainly a narrative in the lead up to Brexit, that made it fertile ground for the result that followed.

One factor that could be seen as major contributor towards the outcome is the general dissatisfaction towards politics in general, and an increased public awareness of a so called metropolitan/ Westminster elite.

From Cash for questions, Mps expenses scandal, bail outs for banks and failing economies, illegal wars, communities changing beyond all recognition, sex scandals, and the icing on the cake Austerity and cuts.

In many ways Brexit, was a perfect opportunity to bloody the nose of politicians and stick two fingers up at a perceived elite who were portrayed over and over again as self serving, combined with the sublime message from the leave side to take back control.

So this is my personal view of what public opinion is....or at least was, with Brexit being its manifestation.

My old friend Yorkie has assured me however, that the Supreme court will base it's decision on the law rather than the political instruction of the people....

 

[callan]

As far as I was aware that we couldn't actually negotiate the terms with the eu until we have initiated article 50?

The EU wont negotiate until Article 50 is invoked.

Don't you think it would be a good idea to actually know what is going to be negoiated in the first place?

How much do you want to know?, and is there a disadvantage to our negotiating position if it becomes known?