Hard or Soft Brexit?

[philtalkin]

But the electorate in one constinuency isn't just purely "leave" or purely "remain" it's a mixture of the two.

Agreed. I don't buy into the 'political suicide' statement. A number of constituency results in the referendum were very narrow and this with a straight yes / no vote.

Now, imagine if you are a Tory MP, who personally voted to remain but 55% of your constituents voted leave. What would happen in a GE when you throw the labour, lib dem, UKIP and green vote into the mix? 45% of the vote would almost certainly get you re-elected.

A gamble? Yes, however in this position you have been dealt a good hand (seeing as we've been talking poker). Same could be said for a Labour MP, in a similar position and I think the Tories are being arrogant if they think an early election will result in a whitewash for them. The ref vote was 52/48 not 70/30!

Also, I trust my MP knows what the right thing is for the future of the country. He certainly knows more than some dodgy geezer down the pub, who hasn't got a clue why he voted leave (or remain) in the first place.

 

[pottster]

I've always believed that politicians are self serving lying scumbags. But that's my own opinion! Could I also point out that being an MP is a job that you need no experience for, and no training. You don't even have to turn up and you cant get sacked. You just have to be popular. So there's a good chance that they don't know much more than the geezer down the pub!

 

[RHB]

I've always believed that politicians are self serving lying scumbags. But that's my own opinion! Could I also point out that being an MP is a job that you need no experience for, and no training. You don't even have to turn up and you cant get sacked. You just have to be popular. So there's a good chance that they don't know much more than the geezer down the pub!

Seems to me that to be popular as an MP you probably have to represent your constituents well and help them when they need it. If an MP doesn't do that he/she won't be popular and won't be an MP for very long. I have also found that some geezers down the pub don't know half as much as they pretend to. Bottom line, there are some very good MPs and reasonably knowledgeable geezers down the pub.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...it-britain-welfare-will-be-for-multinationals

Thought this was a good article on who'll benefit from Brexit.

Much more likely to be the big multinationals like Nissan,than many of the people on benefits or low-paid work, who actually voted for it.

 

[Benfleet A1]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...it-britain-welfare-will-be-for-multinationals

Thought this was a good article on who'll benefit from Brexit.

Much more likely to be the big multinationals like Nissan,than many of the people on benefits or low-paid work, who actually voted for it.

You are aware that Nissan is part owned by Renault which in turn is 19% owned by the French government? You are getting dangerously close to slagging off another country other than the one of your birth.

 

[pottster]

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...it-britain-welfare-will-be-for-multinationals

Thought this was a good article on who'll benefit from Brexit.

Much more likely to be the big multinationals like Nissan,than many of the people on benefits or low-paid work, who actually voted for it.

Shock horror, government in talks with a multi national to secure british jobs.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You are aware that Nissan is part owned by Renault which in turn is 19% owned by the French government? You are getting dangerously close to slagging off another country other than the one of your birth.

I'm aware that the UK has cut a deal with Nissan which offers them some sort of undisclosed sweetner, if we are forced to impose tariffs as part of a hard Brexit agreement.

Shock horror, government in talks with a multi national to secure british jobs.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I'm aware that the UK has cut a deal with Nissan which offers them some sort of undisclosed sweetner, if we are forced to impose tariffs as part of a hard Brexit agreement.

You weren't aware then. That's the problem with selective **** stirring, others might know a tad more than you.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I'm aware that the UK has cut a deal with Nissan which offers them some sort of undisclosed sweetner, if we are forced to impose tariffs as part of a hard Brexit agreement.

The British government has been making sweetner deals with multinational companies to capture or assure their continued patronage to this country for decades. You're now up in arms about this non news story because?

Undisclosed sweetners have been part and parcel of the relationship between large multinationals based in the UK and our own government since before you were born (perhaps) But I suspect you know it that already. You just choose to ignore the fact because the Nissan 'story' suits your anti Brexit stance in some small way.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The British government has been making sweetner deals with multinational companies to capture or assure their continued patronage to this country for decades. You're now up in arms about this non news story because?

Undisclosed sweetners have been part and parcel of the relationship between large multinationals based in the UK and our own government since before you were born (perhaps) But I suspect you know it that already. You just choose to ignore the fact because the Nissan 'story' suits your anti Brexit stance in some small way.

Whether you like it or not, Brexit will provide an excuse for many more companies to seek such deals than if we stayed.

 

[callan]

Whether you like it or not, Brexit will provide an excuse for many more companies to seek such deals than if we stayed.

When you say such deals, you mean the Nissan deal?

and is there anything in particular about the deal that you don't like?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

When you say such deals, you mean the Nissan deal?

and is there anything in particular about the deal that you don't like?

Yes.

1. The need to enter into in the first place.
2. The democratic deficit caused by the lack of Parliamentary scrutiny over such deals. If the idea behind Brexit was to restore Parliamentary sovereignty it hasn't got off to a particularly good start when Nissan know more about the government's plans than Parliament.
3. That it might end up costing the British taxpayer more than Nissan pay its UK staff if the UK is unable to negotiate the deal it wants.
4. I'm fairly relaxed about setting out the UK's negotiation position, but those who say it's like revealing your hand in poker must be aghast at the fact that the UK's position on car manufacturing tariffs has now been effectively laid bare to the EU.
5. The precedent it sets for employers* to gauge concessions out of the UK government due to the political need for the UK government to secure favourable headlines to mask its incompetency

*and also other countries, like say India or Australia. They will have the upper hand when negotiating trade agreements that are a political necessity for the UK government to secure even if the details are wrong for the UK.

What the UK needs to improve it's bargaining position with employers, the EU and third party countries in order to get the best deal for the UK is for Parliamentary scrutiny and MPs inserting a clause that means any UK deal with the EU needs to be approved by either Parliament (preferably after a General Election for added legitimacy) or by a referendum. That would enable British government to negotiate from a far greater position of strength as walking away if the UK wasn't offered enough would be a legitimate option. Being backed into leaving without an alternative greatly reduces the bargaining position.

Given the strength of feeling in the Leave camp about what a great deal Great Britain and NI can achieve, I'm somewhat surprised that there's such resistance from them to going down this route. If the deal the UK gets is so good, why would the electorate reject it?

 

[londonblue]

Yes.

1. The need to enter into in the first place.
2. The democratic deficit caused by the lack of Parliamentary scrutiny over such deals. If the idea behind Brexit was to restore Parliamentary sovereignty it hasn't got off to a particularly good start when Nissan know more about the government's plans than Parliament.
3. That it might end up costing the British taxpayer more than Nissan pay its UK staff if the UK is unable to negotiate the deal it wants.
4. I'm fairly relaxed about setting out the UK's negotiation position, but those who say it's like revealing your hand in poker must be aghast at the fact that the UK's position on car manufacturing tariffs has now been effectively laid bare to the EU.
5. The precedent it sets for employers* to gauge concessions out of the UK government due to the political need for the UK government to secure favourable headlines to mask its incompetency

*and also other countries, like say India or Australia. They will have the upper hand when negotiating trade agreements that are a political necessity for the UK government to secure even if the details are wrong for the UK.

What the UK needs to improve it's bargaining position with employers, the EU and third party countries in order to get the best deal for the UK is for Parliamentary scrutiny and MPs inserting a clause that means any UK deal with the EU needs to be approved by either Parliament (preferably after a General Election for added legitimacy) or by a referendum. That would enable British government to negotiate from a far greater position of strength as walking away if the UK wasn't offered enough would be a legitimate option. Being backed into leaving without an alternative greatly reduces the bargaining position.

Given the strength of feeling in the Leave camp about what a great deal Great Britain and NI can achieve, I'm somewhat surprised that there's such resistance from them to going down this route. If the deal the UK gets is so good, why would the electorate reject it?

Yesterday I spoke to a friend who is an economist with the treasury. He actually has a masters in economics. Whilst he was careful to tell me that his view doesn't reflect any inside information he has paid far more attention to this than most people. When I said to him that governments always give sweeteners to companies to either set up or maintain a presence, his answer was rather interesting.

Governments aren't allowed, by EU or WTO, rules to give money to companies, they have to be clever about it. So what they do is offer money for training of staff etc. In this instance the government's stance to Nissan was far beyond what is normal in these situations. The government effectively gave Nissan anything they asked for with pretty much no negotiation.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

When you say such deals, you mean the Nissan deal?

and is there anything in particular about the deal that you don't like?

Yes, we don't know the extent of the "sweetner" involved since the deal was secret and the details haven't been disclosed.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Brexit may mean Brexit but seemingly, from this leaked document, it also means total chaos at the heart of this government.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cabinet-split-article-50-leaked-a7417966.html

 

[southendkid]

Brexit may mean Brexit but seemingly, from this leaked document, it also means total chaos at the heart of this government.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...cabinet-split-article-50-leaked-a7417966.html

Is anyone actually surprised? It's no secret the Tories weren't expecting Brexit to win and our laws, economy etc are so wrapped up with the EU there's probably more work involved in figuring this out than most governments do in a year, I'll be amazed if a concrete plan has been drawn up even in six months.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Is anyone actually surprised? It's no secret the Tories weren't expecting Brexit to win and our laws, economy etc are so wrapped up with the EU there's probably more work involved in figuring this out than most governments do in a year, I'll be amazed if a concrete plan has been drawn up even in six months.

Yet, if there's any truth in this document, it's far worse than that isn't it? Disagreements and squabling between Brexit ministers, May trying to take control over decision making, finances apparently not being made available for the shedload of extra civil servants required. In footballing parlance, we've reached half-time prior to the start of negociations and we don't have a game plan, we're playing as individuals rather than a team and I'm not sure the players have confidence in their manager. I can almost hear the cries starting up from the fans in the stands, directed towards the manager...........You don't know what yer doing!........... you don't know what yer doing!

 

[callan]

Yet, if there's any truth in this document, it's far worse than that isn't it? Disagreements and squabling between Brexit ministers, May trying to take control over decision making, finances apparently not being made available for the shedload of extra civil servants required. In footballing parlance, we've reached half-time prior to the start of negociations and we don't have a game plan, we're playing as individuals rather than a team and I'm not sure the players have confidence in their manager. I can almost hear the cries starting up from the fans in the stands, directed towards the manager...........You don't know what yer doing!........... you don't know what yer doing!

“This work was conducted without access to No10 or input from any other government departments.”

Who says so....Deloitte themselves

https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...iating-climbdown-advisory-firm-deloitte-after

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/current-issue

Love the new cover of Private Eye.:smiles:

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

“This work was conducted without access to No10 or input from any other government departments.”

Who says so....Deloitte themselves

https://www.politicshome.com/news/e...iating-climbdown-advisory-firm-deloitte-after

.........and a second one.......
http://news.sky.com/story/brexit-plan-is-chaotic-government-warned-10659199