FAO all Ron Martin believers, apologists, apathists: why I shall be voting option 5..

[Kent Shrimper]

Interesting that Adams was trying to negotiate, while Jobson was actively "fiddling while Rome burned". I'd forgotten that we often referred to that era as JobAdams. Wonder what Adams actually did, and what he's up to now...

he just did the club video voice overs surely?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

he just did the club video voice overs surely?

He also wrote patronising letters to fans whenever they complained of lack of onions in the burgers, or whatever the issue of the day was.

 

[GBJ]

I have no issue with condemning Ron for authorising the signings of Peter Clarke and Richie Foran, but were you not one of the ones jumping up and down shouting 'where's the Freddy money gone?' 'Open the warchest' etc etc?

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it.

Again, it's quite simple. Ron is the head honcho. It is his duty/responsibility to run the business in a stable manner. Personal feelings shouldn't come into it. Ron has to make tough decisions, it's his job. Just because you want something, doesn't always mean you can get it. That's where it's Rons duty to evaluate it and decide if it is feesible.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Again, it's quite simple. Ron is the head honcho. It is his duty/responsibility to run the business in a stable manner. Personal feelings shouldn't come into it. Ron has to make tough decisions, it's his job. Just because you want something, doesn't always mean you can get it. That's where it's Rons duty to evaluate it and decide if it is feesible.

So you are saying you were wrong to have criticised him two-three years ago for not splashing the cash?

 

[Bob Cratchitt]

This was before Eastwood's sale.

And BC, you have mail.

Merci ESB.

 

[GBJ]

So you are saying you were wrong to have criticised him two-three years ago for not splashing the cash?

I haven't criticised him for not spending money and you won't find a post by me saying he should. Plus I never advocated he should have spent big cash

However, i did say we need to buy players and stop relying on loans, as that itself was a bullsh*t tactic.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I haven't criticised him for not spending money and you won't find a post by me saying he should. Plus I never advocated he should have spent big cash

However, i did say we need to buy players and stop relying on loans, as that itself was a bullsh*t tactic.

Fair enough then.

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

There are people who write on fourms like this and people who write into the local paper but, until now, I'm one of the majority - the people who watch matches, read what's going on but don't get involved in feedback. Until last season I was a season ticket holder but I don't think the club needs my £20 a match. So I will boycott Roots Hall because Martin has treated fans badly. He's been shifty and dishonest - the comment about Macca on the interview by his staff member on the officail site proved that to me, although I didn't really need proof. I know there's no other way forward at the moment but I don't like Martin and I don't like the direction it's going, already mentioned here. The car stickers are coming down as well!

You're actually Steve Tilson and I hereby claim my £5 ;)

 

[A Century United]

Originally Posted by A Century United
Good grief!

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply. I will gladly respond to your response to my response of someone else's message.


If you check back, Beefy makes the very point that you are arguing against - that if you are percieved to be in any way pro-Ron, you are likely to be called some fairly derogatory names.

The comment was made (not by Beefy, it must be said) that such terms are the majority of what anti-Ron protestors and posters use. I merely requested factual clarification as I believe that not to be the case.


Perhaps suggesting that you were calling Beefy a liar was a bit further than I meant to go, but it doesn't invalidate the point. You are trying to suggest in your first paragraph that suggestions that name calling takes place are wrong or exaggerated.

I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous answer.


Anyone who reads back through these threads will know that simply isn't so, and I am suprised and disappointed that you posted that, especially since you yourself described people who didn't agree with your point of view "heartless and gutless".

For want of a better term, that is a lie, or at best misrepresentation. My original comment, although I can't remember word-for-word, was that there were too many heartless and gutless people within our support to make any protest truly effective. Which, sadly, was proven last Monday. This, of course, referred to people who were particularly vocal and angry at the way the club was being run but have just sat on their backsides when the time came to do anything. That is a world away from 'people who didn't agree with your point of view'. I graciously accept your apology in advance.


As for our personal arrangements, I didn't think that the public forum was the place to discuss them - surely a PM would have been more appropriate?

If we have any 'personal arrangements' in place, please let me know, as I am unaware of any. A PM will, of course, be gladly accepted.

Hope that clears things up for you.

I won't bore the board by a point-by-point rebuttal of your point-by-point rebuttal of my original rebuttal, save to say:

1. Thanks for calling me a liar. However, I stand by my point - you called people who didn't agree with your point of view heartless and gutless, and however you wriggle or spin, that is a fair interpretation of your post.

2. As you know, we had agreed to be in touch regarding meeting on your forthcoming visit. To say that you are unaware of any personal arrangements is therefore something of a suprise to me.

 

[Jam_Man]

Again, it's quite simple. Ron is the head honcho. It is his duty/responsibility to run the business in a stable manner. Personal feelings shouldn't come into it. Ron has to make tough decisions, it's his job. Just because you want something, doesn't always mean you can get it. That's where it's Rons duty to evaluate it and decide if it is feesible.

I haven't criticised him for not spending money and you won't find a post by me saying he should. Plus I never advocated he should have spent big cash

However, i did say we need to buy players and stop relying on loans, as that itself was a bullsh*t tactic.

So he made a tough decision by not buying players and relying on loans and gets slaughtered for that too.

Loans last year were a joke, but they may have been what we needed at the time.

Personally I think Sturrock has shown that you can get players in easily and Tilson may well have been far too cautious and too fussy....

 

[Beefy]

Personally I think Sturrock has shown that you can get players in easily and Tilson may well have been far too cautious and too fussy....

Sturruck has had room to move though. If Barrett, McCormack, Mildenhall, Francis hadn't left/been made to leave, he wouldn't have been able to sign anyone. Which is why whilst the manner of their departures cleared left a sour taste they were absolutely necessary no matter what.

 

[GBJ]

So he made a tough decision by not buying players and relying on loans and gets slaughtered for that too.

Loans last year were a joke, but they may have been what we needed at the time.

Personally I think Sturrock has shown that you can get players in easily and Tilson may well have been far too cautious and too fussy....

But as i've said before, relying on the loan market year after year is just a crap way to go about your business.

I'm not saying he should have started writing big fat cheques to journymen, but it would have been nice to go a season with an actual team. Money problems aside, a major factor is our relegation was for the fact that for the past 3 seasons we've had a much varied side. A bit of continuity and a settled side would have done a lot better.

Last year's loans were crap. The year before (1st half of the season) they weren't much better, bar 1 or 2. Maybe it's all we could do though as there was no money to buy players. More fallout from the infamous CCC season.

As for Sturrock getting players in, it seem many of them know him and want to play for him. Would another manager have been able to do them same? Who knows? One thing's for sure though, Tilly must be furious. He's had to put up with the same dross and not been able to sign players he wants, yet now, Sturrock rocks up at the club and Ron can't wait to get the chequebook out and sign players on 23 year deals

Unfortuntely Ron just can't seem to make the right decision. Ever. But at the end of the day, he wanted the job, so he has to take everything that comes with it, including flak when big mistakes are made.

 

[Napster]

sign players on 23 year deals
.

I'm in- where do I sign?

 

[EastStandBlue]

Unfortuntely Ron just can't seem to make the right decision. Ever. But at the end of the day, he wanted the job, so he has to take everything that comes with it, including flak when big mistakes are made.

I'd argue that, as of late, he seems to be making the correct decisions, just in a **** poor and frankly offensive fashion. It left a very bitter taste in the mouth but, as Beefy says, forcing the likes of Mildenhall, Barrett, McCormack and Francis out was absolutely essential.

 

[Jam_Man]

But as i've said before, relying on the loan market year after year is just a crap way to go about your business.

I'm not saying he should have started writing big fat cheques to journymen, but it would have been nice to go a season with an actual team. Money problems aside, a major factor is our relegation was for the fact that for the past 3 seasons we've had a much varied side. A bit of continuity and a settled side would have done a lot better.

Which is exactly what he has done for this season, yet will get no credit for making the tough decisions.

Last year's loans were crap. The year before (1st half of the season) they weren't much better, bar 1 or 2. Maybe it's all we could do though as there was no money to buy players. More fallout from the infamous CCC season.

As for Sturrock getting players in, it seem many of them know him and want to play for him. Would another manager have been able to do them same? Who knows? One thing's for sure though, Tilly must be furious. He's had to put up with the same dross and not been able to sign players he wants, yet now, Sturrock rocks up at the club and Ron can't wait to get the chequebook out and sign players on 23 year deals

Unfortuntely Ron just can't seem to make the right decision. Ever. But at the end of the day, he wanted the job, so he has to take everything that comes with it, including flak when big mistakes are made.

He hasnt paid a penny for anyone and most are one year deals.

Doesnt matter what he does and what difficult decisions he makes he is going to get slaughtered now.

As for loans, we have had Dervitte, Robinson, Sawyer, Federici amongst others who were all better than we could have bought. Last year we had some good loans, Pat Baldwin and the other Col U chaps did a sterling job.

I personally think the use of loans was over the top, but I think they were neccessary due to the embargos and financial issues we had, which of course are his responsibility anyway.

 

[Hooly]

Thanks first to brigadista, for a thought-provoking first foray onto these boards. However, one thing ought to be cleared up: the notion that Ron "got the club for next to nothing". I don't think that's right at all.

Matt, well reasoned as usual.

I suspect some may think that Rontastic got the club on the cheap simply based on my very hazy recollection that the Beloved Vic valued Roots Hall when he wanted to move to Bas Vegas at around the £14-17 million as a development site. Whether or not my memory (or more likely the Alcozeimers) is playing tricks with me I'm not sure, but I'm certain someone will correct me with the true information.

If that was to be true than it could be said that by settling £5m of debt in exchange for a £14-17m site then he did get it on the cheap.

 

[Beefy]

But as i've said before, relying on the loan market year after year is just a crap way to go about your business.

I'm not saying he should have started writing big fat cheques to journymen, but it would have been nice to go a season with an actual team. Money problems aside, a major factor is our relegation was for the fact that for the past 3 seasons we've had a much varied side. A bit of continuity and a settled side would have done a lot better.

Last year's loans were crap. The year before (1st half of the season) they weren't much better, bar 1 or 2. Maybe it's all we could do though as there was no money to buy players. More fallout from the infamous CCC season.

As for Sturrock getting players in, it seem many of them know him and want to play for him. Would another manager have been able to do them same? Who knows? One thing's for sure though, Tilly must be furious. He's had to put up with the same dross and not been able to sign players he wants, yet now, Sturrock rocks up at the club and Ron can't wait to get the chequebook out and sign players on 23 year deals

Unfortuntely Ron just can't seem to make the right decision. Ever. But at the end of the day, he wanted the job, so he has to take everything that comes with it, including flak when big mistakes are made.

Signing loanees wasn't really a choice. Loanees are cheaper than contracted players and there was nothing in our wage budget to be able to take on any other contracted players. Had we not had a small number of players on relatively large wages last season then we would almost certainly have been able to field a more balanced, and settled side.

 

[GBJ]

I'd argue that, as of late, he seems to be making the correct decisions, just in a **** poor and frankly offensive fashion. It left a very bitter taste in the mouth but, as Beefy says, forcing the likes of Mildenhall, Barrett, McCormack and Francis out was absolutely essential.

Whilst it may seem like forcing them out, I don't think he has, because whatever happened, whether we'd have stayed up or not, most of these players would have gone anyway.

Which is exactly what he has done for this season, yet will get no credit for making the tough decisions.

I'm assuming you're talking about this coming season, what tough decisions has he made? He's sacked Tilly, but apart from that he hasn't brought the players in. Sturrock has. Maybe you can enlighten me as to what tough decisions he's had to make?

He hasnt paid a penny for anyone and most are one year deals.

If that's true, why wasn't the same resources made available to Tilly.

Doesnt matter what he does and what difficult decisions he makes he is going to get slaughtered now.

As the old saying goes, you make your bed, then you have to lie in it.

As for loans, we have had Dervitte, Robinson, Sawyer, Federici amongst others who were all better than we could have bought. Last year we had some good loans, Pat Baldwin and the other Col U chaps did a sterling job.

Really? a sterling job? Relegation would suggest otherwise. The point i'm making is throughout the last 3 years we've had a constantly changing starting XI. Yes we've had some good signings, and without a doubt better than what we could have afforded, but still they weren't ours, and we knew as soon as their loan period was over we'd have to start all over again

I personally think the use of loans was over the top, but I think they were neccessary due to the embargos and financial issues we had, which of course are his responsibility anyway.

Quite possible, but again it's the fallout from the post-CCC season

 

[GBJ]

Signing loanees wasn't really a choice. Loanees are cheaper than contracted players and there was nothing in our wage budget to be able to take on any other contracted players. Had we not had a small number of players on relatively large wages last season then we would almost certainly have been able to field a more balanced, and settled side.

I'm assuming, so I could be wide of the mark, that over the past 3 years, our wage bill on 40-odd(?) loan players would be more expensive than if we'd have picked up 6/7 players on cheap deals and cheap wages?

 

[Firestorm]

Matt, well reasoned as usual.

I suspect some may think that Rontastic got the club on the cheap simply based on my very hazy recollection that the Beloved Vic valued Roots Hall when he wanted to move to Bas Vegas at around the £14-17 million as a development site. Whether or not my memory (or more likely the Alcozeimers) is playing tricks with me I'm not sure, but I'm certain someone will correct me with the true information.

If that was to be true than it could be said that by settling £5m of debt in exchange for a £14-17m site then he did get it on the cheap.

That valuation was never shown in the accounts, (or not post 94 at least) however the assets were revalued up by a couple of Mil very close to when it was sold.

Mind you, what Vic was telling people it was worth is likely to be a completely different thing.