FAO all Ron Martin believers, apologists, apathists: why I shall be voting option 5..

[palexander]

Sort of. But having massively over achieved to get into the Championship he wanted to stay there. He could have taken the Burnley route and worked on a tight budget fully expecting to go down again but to be fair most of us wouldn’t have approved.

We only missed staying up by 7 points from Hull and look where they went.

It probably was a gamble that failed, but even then we are only guessing. Attracting players would mean giving them lengthy contracts at decent money, and call it bad judgement on Ron’s behalf but the alternative would have been to stick with what we had and get hammered every week.

Also this all happened when the move to FF was looking good and maybe Ron thought survive a season in the Championship and the extra revenue from the move would kick in.

Under Ron’s guidance, we have had some good seasons and some bad. Would you have swapped these for staying in League 2 in a mid table position? Why not credit him for the good years, blame him for the bad and call it even. Then see how we are fixed at the end of 2010 which should give him enough time to get this mess sorted, or fail and see the Club go under.

Yup totally, it was a gamble - had we stayed up, who knows where we would be.

It was worth the gamble at the time, but obviously now I'm sure everyone wishes we'd done things differently or not gone up at all.

 

[palexander]

I still say that if Ron had come out after the Scott Macdonald shambles and said "we tried but we understandably lost out to a bigger club" we'd have (mainly) been satisfied. Far better that than signing some mug who cost the club over half a million quid and the manager plainly didn't really want to be here, purely to "pacify the supporters"!

Agree with you on that!

 

[Tommy2holes]

Ok fair point and we obviously disagree on a few things. I don’t dispute the fact that Tilly loves the club but loving the Club doesn’t necessarily make him the best man for the job. Who could deny Bryan Gunn wasn’t Norwich through and through but it didn’t make him a decent manager.

Thats not remotely the same. Your trying to say that just because tilly loved the club he should have remained . What the **** did bryan gunn do as a manager ?

Tilly saved us from relegation then got back to back promotions two ldv finals and beat united in the league cup and drew with chelsea at the bridge.

Its not his love for the club that should have kept him in the job it was the fact the he was arguably the best manager that southend has ever had coupled with his history and background.

 

[GBJ]

I've said it before - but imagine the uproar (on here at very least) if Martin would have come out in our CCC year and said;

"Sorry, we cannot sign anyone as we just cannot afford the wages"

OK, answer me this, IF Ronald McMartin had come out and said "we can sign such and such, but cannot sign certain players on high wages because 3/4/5 years down the line we could face liquidation", just how many of the people causing the so-called uproar would persist?

Can see it now...

"WHERES THE MONEY GONE RON!"

"GO AND DO ONE!"

"WHERE IS THE WARCHEST"

"THIS ISNT TILSONS FAULT"

etc etc...

All good points IMO.

So I think you are wrong GraysBlue - we are and were responsible - as fans we always want more, better, stronger etc - we got what we wanted and whilst we dont decide the contracts of course, we were responsible in part for the recruitment drive.

Ok, let's put it another way. You're wife wants you to buy her something, let's say a new car. So there's your wife, waiting, expecting hoping for this new car. She knows you have enough money, you've worked so hard the last few years that you've made more money than you expected to make. But, here's the problem. The loan repayments are over 4 years. At first it should be no problem, but what if you lost your job? How do you find the funds for the repayments? So not wanting to disappoint your missus, you go and get the car. At first everything is hunky-dory, and you even start planning to buy a new house. Unfortunately, 2 years down the line, you lose your job. You now can't pay any of your debts let alone the car loan. You end up in a world of debt, with no easy way out, and to make matters even worse your wife has had enough and left you.
Now, the question is, who's fault is this? Is it your wife's fault for wanting the car? Or is it your fault for buying it in the first place?

And again, sorry to harp on with this oft repeated point, but I believe a 'better' manager could have spent the limited budget we had more wisely. Look at what Sturrock has achieved on a -£ budget! I'm not advocating getting rid of Tilson when we got promoted (though perhaps another chairman would have - after all, you have to do what is right for the club and in hindsight what was right for us perhaps, was a more experienced head for that level??).

2 things;

i) Tilson's good buys out-weigh his bad buys, so that is petty criticism

ii) How many of those bad signings were actually Tilly's?

 

[Beefy]

Thanks first to brigadista, for a thought-provoking first foray onto these boards. However, one thing ought to be cleared up: the notion that Ron "got the club for next to nothing". I don't think that's right at all.

People seem to forget that our current woes trace back entirely to the mid-1990s - and specifically to the Whelan-Chipmunk stewardship of the club (at a time when Vic was fighting a losing battle with cancer - hence with no one properly running the club from a financial point of view). We signed players on ruinously high wages (e.g. Boere on - supposedly - £3,500/wk basic... and that was in the mid 90s!), whilst gates were dwindling below 5,000 as we commenced our seemingly inexorable slide down the table.

When SEL (half Delancey, half Martin Dawn) bought out Vic's 76% shareholding, they not only paid a healthy sum (about £4m?), but they bought a club with at least £4m of debt - and rising. John Main did nothing to halt that decline - players wages alone were, infamously, 123% of turnover during his stint (and that's before we account for the £150k paid to Peter Storrie - what for, exactly, I've never understood).

By the time of our first appearance at the door of the Winders Court in 2000, we were a club that was already substantially broke. Where Ron Martin can be criticised is that he has done nothing to improve that situation. Instead, he has taken on some very substantial liabilities (e.g. the finance to buy out Delancey's half-share of the club), he has spent a lot of money on some expensive architects and planning consultants... and all seemingly predicated on a business plan where he would always be able to obtain a ready stream of working capital from external sources.

This we all know, and we've talked about numerous times. So, what's the point in repeating it? Well:

1. We shouldn't trick ourselves into thinking that, somehow, Ron is the problem and that the panacea is to remove him. Ron clearly is a problem. But our club was screwed long before him, and is likely to be for some time afterwards if/when he goes.

2. Ron - through a sophisticated (tangled?) web of sub- and offshore-companies - has already spent and invested a lot of money in this club. Brigadista - what makes you think that somehow he'd simply walk away? Administration, or a CVA, wouldn't change a thing. He'd still be the largest single creditor. He'd still call the shots, and we'd still have to deal with him.

3. Liquidation wouldn't be a great solution either. We would have to rename the club (he'd probably own the intellectual property in the club badge and the club name) - we'd have to become AFC Southend, and re-start at the bottom of the footballing pyramid. It would be 10-15 years before we were even close to the league - and I imagine we'd have lost a lot of our fanbase along the way. FC United is linked to Manchester United, one of the largest football clubs in the world; and AFC Wimbledon is linked to a former Premier League club in a place that was always a hotbed of football fan-dom. Southend is neither of those things. What makes you think the club would survive at all, let alone in anything like its current form?

* * *

Don't get me wrong - I believe Ron has acted in a shabby, shameful manner in the last year. He has peddled half-truths and misinformation; he has strangled the club of cashflow; he has failed to pay the players; he has treated the fans with disdain; he alone set the club on course for relegation through his actions; and he continues to act like some sort of risible pocket Napoleon. He is a total bloody embarrassment, of that there can be no doubt.

But the way I see it, the choice we face now is to stick with him - since he is determined to make his supermarket deal - or to face oblivion. If the club can survive for long enough to see us in a new stadium - one in which, perhaps, we might have a chance of growing the fanbase - then there may yet be a future for this club.

Maybe we are, ultimately, doomed - even if we move. Maybe relegation and penury beckons. But there remains a chance that things will turn out OK - we'll stay in the league, and we'll prosper. A slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.

If we all boycott the home games, however, then we have no chance - it's liquidation, and 15+ years of obscurity while we scrape together the money to buy a plot of land, build a stadium and work our way back up the footballing pyramid from the bottom. You'll forgive me if I don't think that that looks like a terribly appealing prospect.

If we support the club (and its unappealing current chairman) we have a chance. If we boycott it, we don't. That's how I see it; and that's why I'll be at Roots Hall on 7th August, cheering on the boys (and saving an especially loud cheer for Anthony Grant).

Matt

Bloody brilliant post, Matt. And that's exactly how I feel.

 

[steveo]

Thats not remotely the same. Your trying to say that just because tilly loved the club he should have remained . What the **** did bryan gunn do as a manager ?

Tilly saved us from relegation then got back to back promotions two ldv finals and beat united in the league cup and drew with chelsea at the bridge.

Its not his love for the club that should have kept him in the job it was the fact the he was arguably the best manager that southend has ever had coupled with his history and background.

Southend united will never have another man at the helm who will love this club as much as tilly did and still does.

Not what I meant at all. I thought you were implying that as Tilly loved the club he should have remained in charge which is why I said loving the club doesn’t necessarily make you the best man for the job.

Sturrock is a journeyman manager who can do a job. Lets hope he does.

 

[Napster]

Bloody brilliant post, Matt. And that's exactly how I feel.

ditto. except i heard different re boere. Basically adams wanted to negotiate, jeroen's agent was playing hardball - vic walks past the office, and adams tells vic hes got a problem re wages. vic says no problem, pay him what they want!

 

[steveo]

i) Tilson's good buys out-weigh his bad buys, so that is petty criticism

Not sure about this GBJ. I havent done proper research but il kick off with Revell, Paynter, Foran and Walker on the bad side,

 

[Beefy]

Not sure about this GBJ. I havent done proper research but il kick off with Revell, Paynter, Foran and Walker on the bad side,

I wouldn't call Revell or Paynter 'bad buys'. They were badly utilised. Tilson's strikers have generally gone on to score goals elsewhere showing that he never had problem with buying decent players.

 

[GBJ]

Sort of. But having massively over achieved to get into the Championship he wanted to stay there. He could have taken the Burnley route and worked on a tight budget fully expecting to go down again but to be fair most of us wouldn’t have approved.

As the main man, he has to make tough decisions. For me there was no foresight shown at all. Financial planning can be very complex. For sure Ron couldn't have seen the economic meltdown, but he could/should have seen/planned for the high possibility that we'd be relegated.

It probably was a gamble that failed, but even then we are only guessing. Attracting players would mean giving them lengthy contracts at decent money, and call it bad judgement on Ron’s behalf but the alternative would have been to stick with what we had and get hammered every week

Also this all happened when the move to FF was looking good and maybe Ron thought survive a season in the Championship and the extra revenue from the move would kick in.

Under Ron’s guidance, we have had some good seasons and some bad. Would you have swapped these for staying in League 2 in a mid table position? Why not credit him for the good years, blame him for the bad and call it even. Then see how we are fixed at the end of 2010 which should give him enough time to get this mess sorted, or fail and see the Club go under.

Granted we've had good season's under him, but I fail to see what he did that was so special during that time? Maybe you can explain to me?

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I wouldn't call Revell or Paynter 'bad buys'. They were badly utilised. Tilson's strikers have generally gone on to score goals elsewhere showing that he never had problem with buying decent players.

They were bad buys not bad players.

 

[EastStandBlue]

I wouldn't call Revell or Paynter 'bad buys'. They were badly utilised. Tilson's strikers have generally gone on to score goals elsewhere showing that he never had problem with buying decent players.

Precisely... Tilson's problem has never been identifying players (although, Brush ruled out signing a few players who have since gone on to do very well in the League), his problem has always been using them, particularly strikers, in the correct fashion.

Paynter and MacDonald especially have gone on to prove themselves as highly competent strikers at this level, while Harrold and Revell were choked of any service by our complete inability to use wingers effectively such was our ****-poor distribution in the centre of the park.

Since Guttridge, and possibly Lee Sawyer, we haven't had central midfielders capable of providing the service for strikers. Moussa tried, but was pushed out wide to accomodate for a stroppy Irishman who couldn't find a blue shirt from 5 yards.

 

[Interpol Shrimper]

Not sure about this GBJ. I havent done proper research but il kick off with Revell, Paynter, Foran and Walker on the bad side,

Revell - Tilson
Paynter - Peter Taylor's recommendation (& we were desperate)
Foran - Martin
Walker - Martin

 

[Bob Cratchitt]

Precisely... Tilson's problem has never been identifying players (although, Brush ruled out signing a few players who have since gone on to do very well in the League),

Really and you know this for a fact, care to explain further.

I have heard that we have missed out on players due to Ron's slowness in getting the negotiations started on more than one occasion. and due to these events have sometimes appeared to make knee jerk signings, as all the groundwork was done on the particular player that we missed out on, and then we go to the next choice.

 

[GBJ]

Not sure about this GBJ. I havent done proper research but il kick off with Revell, Paynter, Foran and Walker on the bad side,

Revs was a decent enough player. He didn't score too many goals, but did the donkey work, very well.

Ok, off the top of my head - good buy's;

Sodje, Prior, Peter Clarke, Hammell, Francis, JCR, Bailey, Eastwood, Goater, Gray, Gutteridge, McCormack, Jay Smith, Barrett, Barnard,

There are more, but i'm struggling to remember. Maybe you can now list the bad buys?

 

[South Bank Hank]

Revell - Tilson
Paynter - Peter Taylor's recommendation (& we were desperate)
Foran - Martin
Walker - Martin

I spoke to Tilson at one of the pre-season games a couple of years back and he was barely able to contain his excitement about Walker - "could be better than Eastwood" were the words I think he used. I'm not too sure about what all this proves anyway but I'd argue pretty strongly that Walker was a Tilson signing. Pretty safe to say we were desperate too when we signed Foran, the player perhaps more worthy than any other of the monicker 'panic buy'.

 

[EastStandBlue]

Really and you know this for a fact, care to explain further.

I have heard that we have missed out on players due to Ron's slowness in getting the negotiations started on more than one occasion. and due to these events have sometimes appeared to make knee jerk signings, as all the groundwork was done on the particular player that we missed out on, and then we go to the next choice.

Brush watched Aaron McLean for some time while he was at Grays and decided that he wasn't an avenue worth pursuing. A year later, he'd signed for Peterborough and the rest is history...

 

[Reg Martin]

This thread is like deja vu all over again.
I believe Ron Martin exists, I think he should apologise, I think he is apathetic about doing so

 

[Bob Cratchitt]

Brush watched Aaron McLean for some time while he was at Grays and decided that he wasn't an avenue worth pursuing. A year later, he'd signed for Peterborough and the rest is history...

And you know this for a fact, i.e. Brush or Tilson told you this? i am not saying this may not be the case, I am just intrigued when people state things like the above and are unable to substantiate the claim. You can PM me the source of the information if you like to keep it away from public domain.

To be honest at the time i guess you are suggesting is when we were entering the Championship, he may have decided it was just too risky for Championship football, of course if we had stayed down then who knows what could have happened.

 

[GBJ]

Brush watched Aaron McLean for some time while he was at Grays and decided that he wasn't an avenue worth pursuing. A year later, he'd signed for Peterborough and the rest is history...

As i've told you before, I was told that Grays refused to do business with SUFC anymore because we still owed them money from the Eastwood sale.