Brexit negotiations thread

[Tangled up in Blue]

Oh I forgot if anyone says it 'eloquently' they must be more intelligent and therefore their opinion must be right.

What you cant grasp is why the Tories want to make Brexit the next GE decider. If it was done and dusted then those working class UKIP votes might go to Labour because we would be talking about domestic issues. As you have ben warned by the local elections early this month they will go to the Tories.

You really should learn to look through the obvious. As Winston Churchill said "Nothing in politics happens by chance"

Certainly in the last local elections 2/3's of former UKIP voters would seem to have reverted to support for the Tories.What is also fairly clear is that young people,aged 18-25, who formed the bedrock of Jeremy Corbyn's support at the last GE, don't normally vote at local elections.Expect them back at the next GE ( along with a whole host of older voters) to register their protest at the Tories Brexit terms

Talking about "the obvious," I wonder why Zuckerberg chose to speak to the EU earlier this week and not the UK parliament? A sure sign of things to come after Brexit,I'd've thought.

 

[rigsby]

Certainly in the last local elections 2/3's of former UKIP voters would seem to have reverted to support for the Tories.What is also fairly clear is that young people,aged 18-25, who formed the bedrock of Jeremy Corbyn's support at the last GE, don't normally vote at local elections.Expect them back at the next GE ( along with a whole host of older voters) to register their protest at the Tories Brexit terms

Talking about "the obvious," I wonder why Zuckerberg chose to speak to the EU earlier this week and not the UK parliament? A sure sign of things to come after Brexit,I'd've thought.

I thought you studied politics at Uni. Surely you would know that protest votes happen at Bi-elections or local elections not at GE.

As for Zuckerberg he knows how wonderful the EU have ben in allowing multinationals to avoid tax.

Just think if old JC followed his convictions and said none of these companies will trade in Britain unless they pay their full tax and the £billions they owe us. He could then promise free education for all and real training for the abandoned working class young men. He could fund any short fall for the NHS

That would still leave enough money for 1million council houses, all built by the now trained real working class of Britain and not Romania. Then you could encourage more skilled people into our public services by offering a free house, thats right not even any rent to Nurses, Teachers and Police etc.

Still you lefties are more interested in what NF said on a train or whether Trump grabbed a pussey. You hope that our long suffering youth are to dumb to understand that Brexit is their future, remain is for the self serving who have profited whilst burdening them for life. From those who were educated in England but have moved to Spain right up to Mark Zuckerberg himself.

 

[SARF]

Yes, of course, I see how it reads and I didn't mean it like that. There again, understanding the full ramifications of a Brexit vote in order to participate in the referendum, would have disenfranchised the great majority of voters.:smile: That is why there should never have been a referendum, let alone one with a simple majority deciding it. Too true the establishment is wriggling. With every day that passes the problems, difficulties and complications of leaving the EU are becoming more and more apparent. As I've said many times before, Cameron's referendum was nothing to do with a view of promoting democracy, on the other hand it may be argued, it turned out viciously that way. His idiotic arrogance just couldn't accept that the vote could go against him. At least he did have the intelligence to understand the total mess the result was going to cause and he ran for his life out of politics, leaving May to grab her chance for power. Don't think she had the intelligence to see what she was walking into...........Tory leadership was the blind
obsession.
So, we are where we are.................in a bloody mess. My views, in believing Brexit to be a disaster, haven't changed. I'm not one of the , 'it's done, let's make the best of it' brigade. Although funnily, the only logical Brexit I see, is a hard one (even though I believe it to be a disasterous move for the UK). What's the point of a soft Brexit? what benefits would it bring us, in comparison to the deal we have in the EU at present?
Leave wasn't much of a vote winner for May in the last election, was it? :smile: The kind of hard Brexit I think you wish for, has the support of only a small (if influential group) in the Tory Party and would never pass in parliament. In the end we are bizarrly left searching for a Brexit which will do the least harm, rather than one which will do the most good.....which, of course, doesn't exist. Perhaps you need to help in the resurrection of UKIP, it could quickly be your turn to be its leader!

Labour and the Tories both went into the last election on leave manifestos. Hence the destruction of UKIP ( job done) and the only remain party the Lib Dems .. The natural labour voters who had defected to Ukip returned. .. Mays campaign was awful as well..

I concur that the only realistic option is what is now termed a hard brexit ..It doesn’t need to be but the EU has no choice , or the whole EU dream will unravel...
UKIP will be back in some guise or other if the upcoming fudge is forced through., to be honest though I think the Tory party will bin May before it reaches that point and call another election on a ‘hard’ Brexit manifesto and let Corbo deal with the fallout from Labours divergence from its last election manifesto

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I thought you studied politics at Uni. Surely you would know that protest votes happen at Bi-elections or local elections not at GE.

As for Zuckerberg he knows how wonderful the EU have ben in allowing multinationals to avoid tax.

Just think if old JC followed his convictions and said none of these companies will trade in Britain unless they pay their full tax and the £billions they owe us. He could then promise free education for all and real training for the abandoned working class young men. He could fund any short fall for the NHS

That would still leave enough money for 1million council houses, all built by the now trained real working class of Britain and not Romania. Then you could encourage more skilled people into our public services by offering a free house, thats right not even any rent to Nurses, Teachers and Police etc.

Still you lefties are more interested in what NF said on a train or whether Trump grabbed a pussey. You hope that our long suffering youth are to dumb to understand that Brexit is their future, remain is for the self serving who have profited whilst burdening them for life. From those who were educated in England but have moved to Spain right up to Mark Zuckerberg himself.

Certainly,the UK's "long suffering youth" have been landed with Brexit by the electorate.It will be interesting to see how they cast their votes in the years ahead.

 

[rigsby]

are you predicting another snap election or are you predicting the Tories will be delivering Brexit years late?

There are claims in the British press TM will ask for a 7 year timetable for Brexit. Plenty of time for 2 GE. I wonder if Labour can cover up their 'We fully support Brexit' manifesto lie for 7 years.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

There are claims in the British press TM will ask for a 7 year timetable for Brexit. Plenty of time for 2 GE. I wonder if Labour can cover up their 'We fully support Brexit' manifesto lie for 7 years.

Labour's position on Brexit is quite clear.There was a manifesto commitment to recognise the referendum result.There is now clear daylight between the Tories position with Labour supporting a customs union.There are also Keir Starmer's 6 tests on the Tories eventual Brexit deal,which will determine whether or not the deal gets Labour's support in the commons.

 

[rigsby]

Labour's position on Brexit is quite clear.There was a manifesto commitment to recognise the referendum result.There is now clear daylight between the Tories position with Labour supporting a customs union.There are also Keir Starmer's 6 tests on the Tories eventual Brexit deal,which will determine whether or not the deal gets Labour's support in the commons.

Indeed it is. Publicly claim you respect the referendum result but privately we all know Labour and its loudest supporters despise the result, the majority who voted for it and will stood to anything to stop Brexit.

Of course your never going to agree with anything the Tories suggest but refuse to comment yourselves. Your whole game plan is hoping the Tories get it wrong and the public might vote Labour

A plan that is guaranteed to fail. You will lose the next 2 GE

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Indeed it is. Publicly claim you respect the referendum result but privately we all know Labour and its loudest supporters despise the result, the majority who voted for it and will stood to anything to stop Brexit.

Of course your never going to agree with anything the Tories suggest but refuse to comment yourselves. Your whole game plan is hoping the Tories get it wrong and the public might vote Labour

A plan that is guaranteed to fail. You will lose the next 2 GE

It so happens that a majority of MP's in both of the major parties would rather the UK remained in the EU.That's not going to happen, (as we both know).What will eventually happen -apart from the inevitable fudge over a customs union-is anybody's guess.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Indeed it is. Publicly claim you respect the referendum result but privately we all know Labour and its loudest supporters despise the result, the majority who voted for it and will stood to anything to stop Brexit.

Of course your never going to agree with anything the Tories suggest but refuse to comment yourselves. Your whole game plan is hoping the Tories get it wrong and the public might vote Labour

A plan that is guaranteed to fail. You will lose the next 2 GE

do you agree with the current Tory version of Brexit then? You expect it to be 7 more years in the making, the £40bn divorce bill is looking like set in stone, no declared policy on the Irish border, not taking back full fishing rights, Cabinet haven't yet agreed there vision to present to the EU. Labour are criticising the Tory Brexit effort - do you approve then? Is what the government have so far offered you what you were hoping for?

 

[Lord Football]

Every single prediction from project fear has not remotely materialised. So what do those who support the we are one big family theory, through blind or selfish PC blinkers resort to......Trying to smear the very people who were smarter and more aware of the utter failings of the EU.

This is what has been reported in the last week or so....

Nearly 40,000 jobs lost over the last two years.

A 90% decline in foreign direct investment.

£40 billion knocked off the GDP.

£39 billion 'EU divorce bill' which seems legally inescapable. Not including anything discovered in on-going audits.

And £20 billion PER YEAR in additional costs to British businesses if "max fac" is implemented.

Let that sink in: roughly eight years of the net EU membership cost SO FAR, plus TWICE the EU membership cost PER YEAR post-Brexit, plus 40,000 lost jobs and no doubt more to be lost.


And of course, what you need to remember is that we've not left yet..... NOT LEFT YET.

 

[Lord Football]

As this is, after all, the Brexit NEGOTIATIONS thread, and sort of following on from my previous post.

Anyone got any thoughts on what might happen if the Withdrawal Bill doesn't get through the Parliamentary System? It will mean we get ourselves into summer recess season with no legislation in place to leave the EU, and no legal vires to enable us to create replacement international rules. It's not so much of a problem if we get a Transition Deal, but a massive one if we don't. We don't have the Parliamentary time to get new legislation in place before March 31, and even if we did, businesses wont be able to in a position to implement any of it.

And of course, the Transition Deal is predicated on what we do with Northern Ireland, and we seem no closer in coming up with something that will work for the EU and the UKG.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

This is what has been reported in the last week or so....

Nearly 40,000 jobs lost over the last two years.

A 90% decline in foreign direct investment.

£40 billion knocked off the GDP.

£39 billion 'EU divorce bill' which seems legally inescapable. Not including anything discovered in on-going audits.

And £20 billion PER YEAR in additional costs to British businesses if "max fac" is implemented.

Let that sink in: roughly eight years of the net EU membership cost SO FAR, plus TWICE the EU membership cost PER YEAR post-Brexit, plus 40,000 lost jobs and no doubt more to be lost.


And of course, what you need to remember is that we've not left yet..... NOT LEFT YET.

So, everything's going to plan then! :winking: As we've been told by Brexiters, this is just normal posturing by both sides and when it's down to the nitty-gritty, we'll end up getting the very best Brexit deal we've all been promised.............that's true isn't it?????

 

[SARF]

Hang on.. isn’t employment at an all time high... isn’t unemployment at some unheard of low level since the 70,s..
Also foreign investment down 90 per cent. Really?
As for anything carney says. Jesus has there ever been a governor of the BOE who was more wrong about everything ..
Check out some of his musings pre the Brexit vote.. add in the chancellor at the time.. the IMF. Obama
All completely full of *****.. well more ***** than usual

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Hang on.. isn’t employment at an all time high... isn’t unemployment at some unheard of low level since the 70,s..
Also foreign investment down 90 per cent. Really?
As for anything carney says. Jesus has there ever been a governor of the BOE who was more wrong about everything ..
Check out some of his musings pre the Brexit vote.. add in the chancellor at the time.. the IMF. Obama
All completely full of *****.. well more ***** than usual

What sort of employment are we talking about here though? People on zero hour contracts and PT employment, when I imagine many of them would rather be in FT employment.

 

[Bielzibubz]

This is what has been reported in the last week or so....

Nearly 40,000 jobs lost over the last two years.

A 90% decline in foreign direct investment.

90% huh. Just a cursory glance at the available data regarding FDI say's nothing of the sort.

http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit03.pdf Page 7

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-b...vestment-in-year-of-brexit-vote-idUKKBN1DV4EI

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/04/27/foreign-investors-back-brexit-britain/

https://www.ft.com/content/daff3ffe-88ac-11e7-8bb1-5ba57d47eff7

From the government itself.

Ernst and Young’s 2017 UK Attractiveness Survey Time to Act reported that while the UK remained Europe’s number one recipient of FDI projects in 2016 (ahead of Germany), the UK’s market share of all projects across Europe fell from 21% to 19%. 31% of surveyed investors expected the UK’s FDI attractiveness to decline over the next three years, while 32% expected it to improve, figures which it states are “significantly worse than the long-term average”, suggesting“Brexit may be starting to colour investors’ views of the UK.”

And perhaps the most relevant.

http://www.ey.com/uk/en/newsroom/ne...brexit-impact-on-uk-foreign-direct-investment

 

[Bielzibubz]

This is what has been reported in the last week or so....

Nearly 40,000 jobs lost over the last two years.

https://fullfact.org/economy/10000-finance-jobs-lost-since-brexit/

https://fullfact.org/economy/more-people-work-brexit-vote/

Forth paragrapgh

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/15/uk-employment-falls-brexit-vote-ons-unemployed

 

[rigsby]

This is what has been reported in the last week or so....

Nearly 40,000 jobs lost over the last two years.

A 90% decline in foreign direct investment.

£40 billion knocked off the GDP.

£39 billion 'EU divorce bill' which seems legally inescapable. Not including anything discovered in on-going audits.

And £20 billion PER YEAR in additional costs to British businesses if "max fac" is implemented.

Let that sink in: roughly eight years of the net EU membership cost SO FAR, plus TWICE the EU membership cost PER YEAR post-Brexit, plus 40,000 lost jobs and no doubt more to be lost.


And of course, what you need to remember is that we've not left yet..... NOT LEFT YET.

Last month it was the Irish border now we have this utter nonsense.

Still look on the bright side I would rather have British investment because that will mean British profit.

With recent levels of unmanaged immigration we would have to create 250,000 jobs every year. So again the jobs figure is more project fear

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

An interesting slant in the FT today. 'No deal' no longer a realistic option? Strange, the link works on my FB page but on here, when I tried to copy and paste it, it became subject to their block. If anyone wants to see the article (it's an interesting read), I typed 'UK halt preparation for no deal' and it was the first link, which I could read without problem.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Deleted by Tangled.

 

[SARF]

What sort of employment are we talking about here though? People on zero hour contracts and PT employment, when I imagine many of them would rather be in FT employment.

I’m sure many people would..maybe a reduction in unfettered eu immigration will force employers to offer better terms to hire and keep employees.. imagine that... a return to the good old days where the employees call the shots every now and then in the economic cycle, rather than employers just shipping in more zero hours contract gofers from Eastern Europe, then discarding them at will...
I’m still amazed labour has gone the opposite way on this. The biggest electoral own goal in decades..