Brexit negotiations thread

[Lord Football]

Fair point, but in my experience much of North Europe is " by the letter" and the Med/south of the EU go along with what suits them, when it suits them.
It may be off the topic discussed but isn't there some poor interpretations on straight forward stuff like drink/driving which, I use as an example, is enforced strongly and directly in northern parts of EU but is interpreted as a guide or " fall back on" law to use in emergency in the south sections.
The EU also has a host of rules on agriculture, for crops and animals yet in lots of rural areas, again they are interpreted similarly as a guide to aspire to or only applying to big farmers/corporations.

You may be right, I've never needed to look at national legislation outside our own.

I know of some fairly "interesting" interpretations in the CAP arena, mainly from Italy and usually involving olives for olive oil. It only really came to light when google maps became available and someone spotted all them olive groves didn't actually exist. Lol.

Converting existing EU Law to UK Law is a pretty complicated process for the very reason we've all identified.

 

[Uncle Leo]

I enjoyed this.

 

[SARF]

Maybe I’m reading it wrong.. but is he saying the Iraq war was ok as Blair’s government thought it was the right thing to .. and thus it was ok the deceive the public.... and that the current government, because they may not believe Brexit is for the best , should just ignore the referendum as the poor plebs should know better ..?
Democracy at its finest

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Maybe I’m reading it wrong.. but is he saying the Iraq war was ok as Blair’s government thought it was the right thing to .. and thus it was ok the deceive the public.... and that the current government, because they may not believe Brexit is for the best , should just ignore the referendum as the poor plebs should know better ..?
Democracy at its finest

For true democracy, surely 'the poor plebs' and everyone one else for that matter, must fully understand the argument on which they were voting and the consequences of that action. It's becoming clearer and clearer that even the governinment don't understand this and have visions of ending up in some Shangri-la that is unachievable. I'm assuming you are a strong Brexiter and wouldn't want to spoil your day by suggesting the Brexit we are likely to end up with is one which will be far from the one you dreamed of. At the best I see a hotchpoch of fudge which leaves the UK out of the EU but far from free of it. A solution which will leave the majority poorer and wondering whether the whole thing was worth it.
Going back to democracy, this is not the fault of the people who voted for Brexit, it is the ill-conceived presentation of the referendum in 2016 (if there should have been a referendum at all). The lies and machinations from both sides, one side offering project fear and the other offering promises, as we're now seeing, which were impossible to deliver. Democracy is the offering and choice of alternatives. When you don't have the true facts and the likely consequence of a choice the risk is that you end up buying a pig in a poke.

 

[Bielzibubz]

For true democracy, surely 'the poor plebs' and everyone one else for that matter, must fully understand the argument on which they were voting and the consequences of that action. It's becoming clearer and clearer that even the governinment don't understand this and have visions of ending up in some Shangri-la that is unachievable. I'm assuming you are a strong Brexiter and wouldn't want to spoil your day by suggesting the Brexit we are likely to end up with is one which will be far from the one you dreamed of. At the best I see a hotchpoch of fudge which leaves the UK out of the EU but far from free of it. A solution which will leave the majority poorer and wondering whether the whole thing was worth it.
Going back to democracy, this is not the fault of the people who voted for Brexit, it is the ill-conceived presentation of the referendum in 2016 (if there should have been a referendum at all). The lies and machinations from both sides, one side offering project fear and the other offering promises, as we're now seeing, which were impossible to deliver. Democracy is the offering and choice of alternatives. When you don't have the true facts and the likely consequence of a choice the risk is that you end up buying a pig in a poke.

Exactly as we do in every GE. We are never given the full facts about anything regardless of what party they are. The main thing the plebs vote on at general elections is the manifesto put forward by a party and as we all know from history they aren't worth the paper they're written on.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Maybe I’m reading it wrong.. but is he saying the Iraq war was ok as Blair’s government thought it was the right thing to .. and thus it was ok the deceive the public.... and that the current government, because they may not believe Brexit is for the best , should just ignore the referendum as the poor plebs should know better ..?
Democracy at its finest

I don't think he is saying that. He is saying that Brexit is distinct from Iraq and Suez because in this instance, the PM does not believe in what they are trying to deliver.

 

[rigsby]

I don't think he is saying that. He is saying that Brexit is distinct from Iraq and Suez because in this instance, the PM does not believe in what they are trying to deliver.

Blair didn't believe Saddam could really launch WOMD on Europe in 45 minutes. He just thought he would treat the British public and his own Cabinet with utter contempt.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Blair didn't believe Saddam could really launch WOMD on Europe in 45 minutes. He just thought he would treat the British public and his own Cabinet with utter contempt.

I think he really believed that getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do. And that is what the writer is trying to convey.

 

[rigsby]

I think he really believed that getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do. And that is what the writer is trying to convey.

I think the Neo Cons in the US thought that. Phoney Toney realised he would make vast personal profit by sitting on the knee of George W Bush

 

[Bielzibubz]

I think he really believed that getting rid of Saddam was the right thing to do. And that is what the writer is trying to convey.

He knew exactly what he was doing, when and how. He knew the whole thing was built on lies and he played his long game exactly how he planned to play it. I don't really want to go over old ground but he is one person I seriously wouldn't care a toss if he keeled over and karked it. The mans got the blood of thousands on his hands.

 

[SARF]

For true democracy, surely 'the poor plebs' and everyone one else for that matter, must fully understand the argument on which they were voting and the consequences of that action. It's becoming clearer and clearer that even the governinment don't understand this and have visions of ending up in some Shangri-la that is unachievable. I'm assuming you are a strong Brexiter and wouldn't want to spoil your day by suggesting the Brexit we are likely to end up with is one which will be far from the one you dreamed of. At the best I see a hotchpoch of fudge which leaves the UK out of the EU but far from free of it. A solution which will leave the majority poorer and wondering whether the whole thing was worth it.
Going back to democracy, this is not the fault of the people who voted for Brexit, it is the ill-conceived presentation of the referendum in 2016 (if there should have been a referendum at all). The lies and machinations from both sides, one side offering project fear and the other offering promises, as we're now seeing, which were impossible to deliver. Democracy is the offering and choice of alternatives. When you don't have the true facts and the likely consequence of a choice the risk is that you end up buying a pig in a poke.

If you follow that logic then we will need some kind of test before anyone is allowed to vote on anything... and I don’t think anyone would want that .
Also no one can ‘know’ the outcome of something like Brexit.. some people are happy to leave or stay on principle.. some worry about money , others may well vote on the basis of the colour of the rosettes..
The vote was to exit completely, it was worded thus in the hope such a nuclear option would deter the average punter from voting leave.. oops. The wriggling around now by the establishment is almost comical , well almost as comical as the Tory party’s lack of spine on the whole issue.. Leave is a nailed on vote winner at the next election

 

[SARF]

I don't think he is saying that. He is saying that Brexit is distinct from Iraq and Suez because in this instance, the PM does not believe in what they are trying to deliver.

Ah gotcha.. well in that case it still seems a bit backwards... He is lauding someone for lying to the public on the back of their principles or what they believe to be right ..whilst slagging off someone for doing the job they were elected to do, even if they don’t totally agree with it ..

Overall I agree he make an interesting point, somewhat lost in the rant prefixing it

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

If you follow that logic then we will need some kind of test before anyone is allowed to vote on anything... and I don’t think anyone would want that .
Also no one can ‘know’ the outcome of something like Brexit.. some people are happy to leave or stay on principle.. some worry about money , others may well vote on the basis of the colour of the rosettes..
The vote was to exit completely, it was worded thus in the hope such a nuclear option would deter the average punter from voting leave.. oops. The wriggling around now by the establishment is almost comical , well almost as comical as the Tory party’s lack of spine on the whole issue.. Leave is a nailed on vote winner at the next election

Yes, of course, I see how it reads and I didn't mean it like that. There again, understanding the full ramifications of a Brexit vote in order to participate in the referendum, would have disenfranchised the great majority of voters.:smile: That is why there should never have been a referendum, let alone one with a simple majority deciding it. Too true the establishment is wriggling. With every day that passes the problems, difficulties and complications of leaving the EU are becoming more and more apparent. As I've said many times before, Cameron's referendum was nothing to do with a view of promoting democracy, on the other hand it may be argued, it turned out viciously that way. His idiotic arrogance just couldn't accept that the vote could go against him. At least he did have the intelligence to understand the total mess the result was going to cause and he ran for his life out of politics, leaving May to grab her chance for power. Don't think she had the intelligence to see what she was walking into...........Tory leadership was the blind
obsession.
So, we are where we are.................in a bloody mess. My views, in believing Brexit to be a disaster, haven't changed. I'm not one of the , 'it's done, let's make the best of it' brigade. Although funnily, the only logical Brexit I see, is a hard one (even though I believe it to be a disasterous move for the UK). What's the point of a soft Brexit? what benefits would it bring us, in comparison to the deal we have in the EU at present?
Leave wasn't much of a vote winner for May in the last election, was it? :smile: The kind of hard Brexit I think you wish for, has the support of only a small (if influential group) in the Tory Party and would never pass in parliament. In the end we are bizarrly left searching for a Brexit which will do the least harm, rather than one which will do the most good.....which, of course, doesn't exist. Perhaps you need to help in the resurrection of UKIP, it could quickly be your turn to be its leader!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

If you follow that logic then we will need some kind of test before anyone is allowed to vote on anything... and I don’t think anyone would want that .
Also no one can ‘know’ the outcome of something like Brexit.. some people are happy to leave or stay on principle.. some worry about money , others may well vote on the basis of the colour of the rosettes..
The vote was to exit completely, it was worded thus in the hope such a nuclear option would deter the average punter from voting leave.. oops. The wriggling around now by the establishment is almost comical , well almost as comical as the Tory party’s lack of spine on the whole issue.. Leave is a nailed on vote winner at the next election

And there was me thinking the two options on the ballot paper were leave or remain.Not how "to exit completely" or even to "wiggle it just a little bit", at all.

Btw, "leave",as such,won't be up for discussion at the next GE.Though the final negociated Brexit terms most certainly will be.

 

[rigsby]

And there was me thinking the two options on the ballot paper were leave or remain.Not how "to exit completely" or even to "wiggle it just a little bit", at all.

Btw, "leave",as such,won't be up for discussion at the next GE.Though the final negociated Brexit terms most certainly will be.

That's what leave means. That's what the majority of people voted for. That's why Brits who chose to live in another country don't get a vote. They have no understanding of the current political climate in Britain.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That's what leave means. That's what the majority of people voted for. That's why Brits who chose to live in another country don't get a vote. They have no understanding of the current political climate in Britain.

I'd like to see your evidence for the assertion that all or even a majority of those who voted leave,voted to leave the single market and the customs union.It certainly wasn't on the ballot paper.

Your penultimate remark is just plain wrong (there's currently a 15 year rule for overseas voters, which the government has committed to end and introduce 'votes for life') and the last one is just crass.

 

[rigsby]

I'd like to see your evidence for the assertion that all or even a majority of those who voted leave,voted to leave the single market and the customs union.It certainly wasn't on the ballot paper.

Your penultimate remark is just plain wrong (there's currently a 15 year rule for overseas voters, which the government has committed to end and introduce 'votes for life') and the last one is just crass.

It didn't need to be. We knew exactly what we were voting for. Not just out....Out, out.

Every single prediction from project fear has not remotely materialised. So what do those who support the we are one big family theory, through blind or selfish PC blinkers resort to......Trying to smear the very people who were smarter and more aware of the utter failings of the EU.

A judge mans intelligence, not by what he sees but what he sees through.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It didn't need to be. We knew exactly what we were voting for. Not just out....Out, out.

Every single prediction from project fear has not remotely materialised. So what do those who support the we are one big family theory, through blind or selfish PC blinkers resort to......Trying to smear the very people who were smarter and more aware of the utter failings of the EU.

A judge mans intelligence, not by what he sees but what he sees through.

Your version of Brexit is a UKIP one,which is not what the Tory government will finally deliver.As Yogi has eloquently told you, there won't be a hard Brexit as such, but a typical British fudge which will leave the UK much more closely aligned to the EU that many people on your side of the argument will like.Who knows, perhaps UKIP will even pick up in the polls? :winking:

 

[rigsby]

Your version of Brexit is a UKIP one,which is not what the Tory government will finally deliver.As Yogi has eloquently told you, there won't be a hard Brexit as such, but a typical British fudge which will leave the UK much more closely aligned to the EU that many people on your side of the argument will like.Who knows, perhaps UKIP will even pick up in the polls? :winking:

Oh I forgot if anyone says it 'eloquently' they must be more intelligent and therefore their opinion must be right.

What you cant grasp is why the Tories want to make Brexit the next GE decider. If it was done and dusted then those working class UKIP votes might go to Labour because we would be talking about domestic issues. As you have ben warned by the local elections early this month they will go to the Tories.

You really should learn to look through the obvious. As Winston Churchill said "Nothing in politics happens by chance"

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Oh I forgot if anyone says it 'eloquently' they must be more intelligent and therefore their opinion must be right.

What you cant grasp is why the Tories want to make Brexit the next GE decider. If it was done and dusted then those working class UKIP votes might go to Labour because we would be talking about domestic issues. As you have ben warned by the local elections early this month they will go to the Tories.

You really should learn to look through the obvious. As Winston Churchill said "Nothing in politics happens by chance"

are you predicting another snap election or are you predicting the Tories will be delivering Brexit years late?