Brexit negotiations thread

[Bielzibubz]

What the EU will have learnt about Mrs May (and her negotiating team), as evidenced by the transition agreement, is that she (and they) are slow to make up their mind, tend to make a final decision at the very last minute possible and cave in under pressure.Can't say all that augers very well for the final deal later this year.

Whereas you'd prefer the UK negotiators to rush in without weighing up all the options and repercussions, make a final decision before knowing and understanding all the possible outcomes and not to compromise in the best interests of all.

This is why I don't respect one point you have ever, or will make TUIB. Whereas *** and some other left leaning posters on here makes good points at times they at least acknowledge that other peoples opinions are valid and carry some merit. You on the other hand are so entrenched in your myopic socialist far left ideals you cannot ever see and accept that perhaps you don't know everything or that your opinions and ideas might just be wrong.

In order to come up with informative and coherent argument that others will respect you must at least start with being able to see and understand both viewpoints and sides of that argument. You fail at that every time.

 

[Lord Football]

Whereas you'd prefer the UK negotiators to rush in without weighing up all the options and repercussions, make a final decision before knowing and understanding all the possible outcomes and not to compromise in the best interests of all.

This is why I don't respect one point you have ever, or will make TUIB. Whereas *** and some other left leaning posters on here makes good points at times they at least acknowledge that other peoples opinions are valid and carry some merit. You on the other hand are so entrenched in your myopic socialist far left ideals you cannot ever see and accept that perhaps you don't know everything or that your opinions and ideas might just be wrong.

In order to come up with informative and coherent argument that others will respect you must at least start with being able to see and understand both viewpoints and sides of that argument. You fail at that every time.

The far left socialist position on Brexit (or it give it its "proper" name - Lexit) is to leave, and to do so promptly.

I am not messing around with mamby pamby Guardian links, take a gander at some proper left wing press. (actually, don't. It will hurt your eyes, but you get the point).

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/46168/Corbyn+must+not+give+in+to+the+right+over+Brexit

https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/EU

 

[Bielzibubz]

The far left socialist position on Brexit (or it give it its "proper" name - Lexit) is to leave, and to do so promptly.

I am not messing around with mamby pamby Guardian links, take a gander at some proper left wing press. (actually, don't. It will hurt your eyes, but you get the point).

https://socialistworker.co.uk/art/46168/Corbyn+must+not+give+in+to+the+right+over+Brexit

https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/EU

Thank you for the links LF. I read them both and I stand corrected. As I said, there's little point formulating an opinion/argument if you don't at least accept there are two viewpoints to that argument and accept when you're wrong.

On reflection I should have just said TUIB and his own myopic and entrenched views on Brexit and left it at that. My point regarding the lack of respect I have for his opinions and arguments still stand though :D

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Whereas you'd prefer the UK negotiators to rush in without weighing up all the options and repercussions, make a final decision before knowing and understanding all the possible outcomes and not to compromise in the best interests of all.

This is why I don't respect one point you have ever, or will make TUIB. Whereas *** and some other left leaning posters on here makes good points at times they at least acknowledge that other peoples opinions are valid and carry some merit. You on the other hand are so entrenched in your myopic socialist far left ideals you cannot ever see and accept that perhaps you don't know everything or that your opinions and ideas might just be wrong.

In order to come up with informative and coherent argument that others will respect you must at least start with being able to see and understand both viewpoints and sides of that argument. You fail at that every time.

FYI,I voted against the UK's entry into the EEC back in 1975.At the time that was the appropriate left-wing thing to do.Obviously living in Spain and France for most of the last 40 years has given me ample opportunity to reflect and change my mind.Being in favour of the EU these days -as Lord Football has pointed out-is hardly a "far left" position.

 

[rigsby]

FYI,I voted against the UK's entry into the EEC back in 1975.At the time that was the appropriate left-wing thing to do.Obviously living in Spain and France for most of the last 40 years has given me ample opportunity to reflect and change my mind.Being in favour of the EU these days -as Lord Football has pointed out-is hardly a "far left" position.

Maybe if you had lived in Essex you would know you were right all those years ago :winking:

 

[Bielzibubz]

FYI,I voted against the UK's entry into the EEC back in 1975.At the time that was the appropriate left-wing thing to do.Obviously living in Spain and France for most of the last 40 years has given me ample opportunity to reflect and change my mind.Being in favour of the EU these days -as Lord Football has pointed out-is hardly a "far left" position.

See my reply to LF.

The EU of 1975 is a wholly different beast to the wannabe federalist superstate it is today. The two cannot be compared so the argument that you've changed your mind holds little water I'm afraid.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Maybe if you had lived in Essex you would know you were right all those years ago :winking:

Ha! It's precisely because I don't live in Essex anymore that I know I'm right now. As a sister-in-law of mine, (not Mrs Noxious), used to say: "You can take the boy out of Essex but you can't take Essex out of the boy." She was right,for once. :winking:

See my reply to LF.

The EU of 1975 is a wholly different beast to the wannabe federalist superstate it is today. The two cannot be compared so the argument that you've changed your mind holds little water I'm afraid.

I'm well aware that the EU of 1975 has changed radically from the current set up.You are quite wrong to assert,however,that the two entiities can't be compared.Of course they can.Basic logic tells you that.

 

[rigsby]

Ha! It's precisely because I don't live in Essex anymore that I know I'm right now. As a sister-in-law of mine, (not Mrs Noxious), used to say: "You can take the boy out of Essex but you can't take Essex out of the boy." She was right,for once. :winking:



I'm well aware that the EU of 1975 has changed radically from the current set up.You are quite wrong to assert,however,that the two entiities can't be compared.Of course they can.Basic logic tells you that.

Well I suppose you are technically right Tangled because you can compare chalk and cheese.

However when you listened to the likes of Tony Benn and did not vote for the Common Market others thought his fears were overstated back in the 70's and clearly there were benefits to be in a trading group of 9 strong countries.... What we ended up with is the unmanageable 27 country corrupt EU.

Everything Tony Benn said would happen about globalisation and the negative effects it would have on the true working class has happened. You have changed your mind for your own selfish reasons not for the people of Britain you 'claim' to speak for.
.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

The minimum wage (IN THE UK) went up today to closer to £8. This is much higher than in comparable EU countries and with the further rises suggests that the UK will continue to "attract" unskilled labour for, especially important, seasonal work as it seems too many Brits would rather pick up DSS than work.
Simplistic view for sure but part of the Leave/Remain discussion?

 

[rigsby]

The minimum wage (IN THE UK) went up today to closer to £8. This is much higher than in comparable EU countries and with the further rises suggests that the UK will continue to "attract" unskilled labour for, especially important, seasonal work as it seems too many Brits would rather pick up DSS than work.
Simplistic view for sure but part of the Leave/Remain discussion?

A cheap rent in London is around £1500 for a 1 bedroom flat......About 50 hours a week for someone on minimum wage. Still one way is to have up to 20 people sharing one house.

After all as the snotty woman on Question Time said "Without these immigrants who will make my coffee in the morning"

How about she pays 10p more per cup and the tax dodging multi national earn 10p less on each cup, then we can have full employment and greatly improve the lives of our modern slaves

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Well I suppose you are technically right Tangled because you can compare chalk and cheese.

However when you listened to the likes of Tony Benn and did not vote for the Common Market others thought his fears were overstated back in the 70's and clearly there were benefits to be in a trading group of 9 strong countries.... What we ended up with is the unmanageable 27 country corrupt EU.

Everything Tony Benn said would happen about globalisation and the negative effects it would have on the true working class has happened. You have changed your mind for your own selfish reasons not for the people of Britain you 'claim' to speak for.
.

Arguably, globalisation would have happened anyway with/without the EU. (However, I'm quite happy to accept that the liberalisation of markets within the EU enhanced this process).

My reasons for supporting the UK's membership of the EU are certainly personal but I wouldn't describe them as "selfish". Nor have I ever claimed to "speak for" the "people of Britain."

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The minimum wage (IN THE UK) went up today to closer to £8. This is much higher than in comparable EU countries and with the further rises suggests that the UK will continue to "attract" unskilled labour for, especially important, seasonal work as it seems too many Brits would rather pick up DSS than work.
Simplistic view for sure but part of the Leave/Remain discussion?

A cheap rent in London is around £1500 for a 1 bedroom flat......About 50 hours a week for someone on minimum wage. Still one way is to have up to 20 people sharing one house.

After all as the snotty woman on Question Time said "Without these immigrants who will make my coffee in the morning"

How about she pays 10p more per cup and the tax dodging multi national earn 10p less on each cup, then we can have full employment and greatly improve the lives of our modern slaves

There is also the perfectly valid point that the UK, (as well as many other advanced countries in Europe), needs a constant supply of immigrants in order to fund future public pension provision for its citizens.This is an issue that politicians of all parties have ducked but will only be exacerbated in the years to come.

 

[rigsby]

There is also the perfectly valid point that the UK, (as well as many other advanced countries in Europe), needs a constant supply of immigrants in order to fund future public pension provision for its citizens.This is an issue that politicians of all parties have ducked but will only be exacerbated in the years to come.

I'm surprised that you have bought into that total myth.

I read a good article a few years back by some professor of economics who says even when the aged peak in 2035? it will only cost another 1% of GPD. Firefighters, police and army have already had years stolen from them as well as the retirement age being raised to 67.

Shame we all weren't MP's or banksters.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I'm surprised that you have bought into that total myth.

I read a good article a few years back by some professor of economics who says even when the aged peak in 2035? it will only cost another 1% of GPD. Firefighters, police and army have already had years stolen from them as well as the retirement age being raised to 67.

Shame we all weren't MP's or banksters.

It is,of course,not "a total myth" at all.

"All over Europe,economists are nervously scanning demographic trends and tripping over one inescapable fact:if national economies are going to grow at a level sufficient to provide pensions for the existing working population.then serious immigration is a necessity,whatever anyone feels about it.Few politicians choose to spell this out as boldly as they should.But immigration,far from being a threat to our way of life,might one day turn out to be quite the opposite:our best hope."
Robert Winder,Bloody Foreigners,Revised and updated edition.2013.

The retirement age here in Spain is in the process of being raised to 67 for everybody and not just the groups you mention.I retired a year ago today officially at 65 and 7 months (rather appropriately I think :winking:) though I'm still working PT .This goes up by 2 months each year until it reaches 67.

More to the point, the increase in the Spanish state pension this year was a derisory 0.25%, when the "official" inflation rate is 2%.That's the first time in recent Spanish history that pension increases haven't kept up with the official rate of inflation.That's likely to become much more common in the future and not just for Spain,either.The days of the triple lock pension in the UK will come to an end as soon as a UK government,whether Tory or Labour has the courage to pay the electoral price for abolishing it.That's perhaps not a bad thing,given that successive Tory and Labour governments have created the present imbalance between the economic prospects of the young and the elderly by greatly favouring the latter at the expense of the former.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Well I suppose you are technically right Tangled because you can compare chalk and cheese.

However when you listened to the likes of Tony Benn and did not vote for the Common Market others thought his fears were overstated back in the 70's and clearly there were benefits to be in a trading group of 9 strong countries.... What we ended up with is the unmanageable 27 country corrupt EU.

Everything Tony Benn said would happen about globalisation and the negative effects it would have on the true working class has happened. You have changed your mind for your own selfish reasons not for the people of Britain you 'claim' to speak for.
.

The (presumably) unintended irony of this remark is priceless.

All UK governments since the Thatcher/Major era, (and that of course includes Bliar/Brown and Cameron /May), have strongly supported the opening up of the EEC/EU to new member states.In the UK's case,this was done in the mistaken belief that doing so would somehow weaken the decision-making balance of power at the centre,dominated by the axis of Germany and France.

Of course, it remains to be seen what sort of trading deal will finally be made with the EU in the Brexit talks,.One thing can be taken as a given,however.Logically,the UK won't get a better deal with the EU outside the single market and customs union than it does already inside.

 

[rigsby]

It is,of course,not "a total myth" at all.

"All over Europe,economists are nervously scanning demographic trends and tripping over one inescapable fact:if national economies are going to grow at a level sufficient to provide pensions for the existing working population.then serious immigration is a necessity,whatever anyone feels about it.Few politicians choose to spell this out as boldly as they should.But immigration,far from being a threat to our way of life,might one day turn out to be quite the opposite:our best hope."
Robert Winder,Bloody Foreigners,Revised and updated edition.2013.

The retirement age here in Spain is in the process of being raised to 67 for everybody and not just the groups you mention.I retired a year ago today officially at 65 and 7 months (rather appropriately I think :winking:) though I'm still working PT .This goes up by 2 months each year until it reaches 67.

More to the point, the increase in the Spanish state pension this year was a derisory 0.25%, when the "official" inflation rate is 2%.That's the first time in recent Spanish history that pension increases haven't kept up with the official rate of inflation.That's likely to become much more common in the future and not just for Spain,either.The days of the triple lock pension in the UK will come to an end as soon as a UK government,whether Tory or Labour has the courage to pay the electoral price for abolishing it.That's perhaps not a bad thing,given that successive Tory and Labour governments have created the present imbalance between the economic prospects of the young and the elderly by greatly favouring the latter at the expense of the former.

I was going to say how surprised I was that an old school socialist like yourself could be so easily duped by the people who really run the show......The financial elite.......Then again.

 

[rigsby]

The (presumably) unintended irony of this remark is priceless.

All UK governments since the Thatcher/Major era, (and that of course includes Bliar/Brown and Cameron /May), have strongly supported the opening up of the EEC/EU to new member states.In the UK's case,this was done in the mistaken belief that doing so would somehow weaken the decision-making balance of power at the centre,dominated by the axis of Germany and France.

Of course, it remains to be seen what sort of trading deal will finally be made with the EU in the Brexit talks,.One thing can be taken as a given,however.Logically,the UK won't get a better deal with the EU outside the single market and customs union than it does already inside.

If you want to know why each 'government' made such crass decisions read my previous post for the clue.

We can have what trade deal we like, how about the same one the USA get which is better than ours and were still in the EU.

We will be trading with the rest of the world, including cheaper food. As the EU trade shrinks every year we will become the country to deal with as every country in South America or Africa etc wont have large EU tariffs placed on their goods sold to the UK.

We will the country to set up business in. Those scare stories about big financial institutions leaving are again a total myth. Small office in Luxemburg to get around the EU financial rules but the main business will always be done in London. As the EU collapses and you are left on the burning deck you'll have to look your grandchildren in the eye and explain why you couldn't see the absolute obvious future staring you in the face.

Don't take this to personal but some of you remainers remind me of Neville Chamberlain waving your white piece of paper in hope rather than deal with the problem why we still can.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I was going to say how surprised I was that an old school socialist like yourself could be so easily duped by the people who really run the show......The financial elite.......Then again.

I'm fully aware ,thanks,that the main reason the (small) majority of the British public,who voted for Brexit did so, was to **** a snoop at the Establishment by giving a two-fingered salute.Quite understandable but nothing socialist about that.They will also have to pay quite a heavy economic price for it,unfortunately.

If you want to know why each 'government' made such crass decisions read my previous post for the clue.

We can have what trade deal we like, how about the same one the USA get which is better than ours and were still in the EU.

We will be trading with the rest of the world, including cheaper food. As the EU trade shrinks every year we will become the country to deal with as every country in South America or Africa etc wont have large EU tariffs placed on their goods sold to the UK.

We will the country to set up business in. Those scare stories about big financial institutions leaving are again a total myth. Small office in Luxemburg to get around the EU financial rules but the main business will always be done in London. As the EU collapses and you are left on the burning deck you'll have to look your grandchildren in the eye and explain why you couldn't see the absolute obvious future staring you in the face.

Don't take this to personal but some of you remainers remind me of Neville Chamberlain waving your white piece of paper in hope rather than deal with the problem why we still can.

On the contrary we will get the trade deal that the EU is prepared to give us.

As to (some of your) other points.We already have one grandchild,though at 10 months old,he's understandably not quite capable of taking in rather complex economic arguments yet.:winking: Quite frankly, I don't think I'll have anything to apologise to him for, in the future,either.

We will only be "the country to set up business in" as you assert, if we adopt a Singapore type,cheap labour, economic model on the periphery of the EU.I sincerely hope that doesn't happen,as after 8 years of Tory austerity and the financial costs of Brexit to come,I suspect things are going to be rather tough (at least in the short term) for people in the UK.We'll soon see, meanwhile, what sort of financial services "passporting" deal the city can negotiate with the EU.

Talking about Tories-I see you've adopted Jacob Rees-Mogg's mantra about "cheaper food" after Brexit.That will almost certainly be the case.But as with Neville Chamberlain, (also a Tory incidentally), "peace in our time" came at rather a high price.As will Brexit and "cheaper food."

 

[callan]

I'm fully aware ,thanks,that the main reason the (small) majority of the British public,who voted for Brexit did so, was to **** a snoop at the Establishment by giving a two-fingered salute.Quite understandable but nothing socialist about that.They will also have to pay quite a heavy economic price for it,unfortunately.



On the contrary we will get the trade deal that the EU is prepared to give us.

As to (some of your) other points.We already have one grandchild,though at 10 months old,he's understandbly not quite capable of taking in rather complex economic arguments yet.:winking: Quite frankly, I don't think I'll have anything to apologise to him for, in the future,either.

We will only be "the country to set up business in" as you assert, if we adopt a Singapore type,cheap labour, economic model on the periphery of the EU.I sincerely hope that doesn't happen,as after 8 years of Tory austerity and the financial costs of Brexit to come,I suspect things are going to be rather tough (at least in the short term) for people in the UK.We'll see, meanwhile, if the city can negotiate some sort of financial services "passporting" deal with the EU.

Talking about Tories-I see you've adopted Jacob Rees-Mogg's mantra about "cheaper food" after Brexit.That will almost certainly be the case.But as with Neville Chamberlain, (also a Tory incidentally), "peace in our time" came at rather a high price.As will Brexit and "cheaper food."

Chip off the old block :smile:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Chip off the old block :smile:

Ha! I imagine I have told you about my "A" level in Economics before now? :winking: