Brexit negotiations thread

[callan]

Thanks for your "idiots guide" to "managed convergence." Expect some fallout from Labour and the EU this weekend, after Mrs May's speech about this tomorrow.:winking:

Labour need to be careful as their idea of a customs union isn't far off total fantasy, but I note at this point they are describing it as an option rather than a commitment.

Lets be honest though this is a ploy to bring down Mays Government.

 

[callan]

Yes he has a lot of form... as a pro-European.:whistling:

You mean pro EU of course...:winking:

 

[Uncle Leo]

I thought the reference was to his lack of loyalty towards Theresa May, rather than Brexit?

Major himself has form himself here....

Indeed it was, although I can't imagine Dorries would have spoken out had Major delivered a speech on (say) the govt's health policy. 'Traitor' is still a powerful word and shouldn't be used lightly.

I think Major is entitled to speak out - he's hardly being the 'back seat driver' Thatcher was when he was PM.

 

[callan]

Indeed it was, although I can't imagine Dorries would have spoken out had Major delivered a speech on (say) the govt's health policy. 'Traitor' is still a powerful word and shouldn't be used lightly.

I think Major is entitled to speak out - he's hardly being the 'back seat driver' Thatcher was when he was PM.

I think he is entitled to his opinion....and Nadine Dorries to hers.

Major used the reference bar stewards when once describing his colleagues....perhaps its a conservative thing :)

 

[Uncle Leo]

I think he is entitled to his opinion....and Nadine Dorries to hers.

Major used the reference bar stewards when once describing his colleagues....perhaps its a conservative thing :)

I just think her tone was unfortunate. It's a very pejorative word - worse than *******s I'd say - and is symptomatic of the low tone regularly seen from the extremes of both sides of the Brexit debate.

 

[Cricko]

I just think her tone was unfortunate. It's a very pejorative word - worse than *******s I'd say - and is symptomatic of the low tone regularly seen from the extremes of both sides of the Brexit debate.

By all the absolute tossers who have no idea what they are doing..

Fiasco it is indeed.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You mean pro EU of course...:winking:

I'd say John Major was (like me) both pro-European and pro-EU.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Labour need to be careful as their idea of a customs union isn't far off total fantasy, but I note at this point they are describing it as an option rather than a commitment.

Lets be honest though this is a ploy to bring down Mays Government.

As to your first point. it's clearly consistent with Labour's negotiating postion outlined last year, of keeping all options on the table in the Brexit negotiations.

I'm sure your second point is right.After all it is the function of HMO to oppose HMG. :winking:

 

[callan]

As to your first point. it's clearly consistent with Labour's negotiating postion outlined last year of keeping all options open.

I'm sure your second point is right.After all it is the function of HMO to oppose HMG. :winking:

Labour don't have a negotiating position, until they choose an option...when Corbyn decided to go public earlier on in the week with his mistaken concept of staying in a Customs union, it was quietly decided less than 24 hours later that this was not a position but an option...presumably this was to save Barry Gardiners ar5e from further kickings.

I'm sure you will agree that opposition needs to be by way of an alternative, as far as Brexit is concerned Labour aren't offering an alternative just a series of 'options'.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Labour don't have a negotiating position, until they choose an option...when Corbyn decided to go public earlier on in the week with his mistaken concept of staying in a Customs union, it was quietly decided less than 24 hours later that this was not a position but an option...presumably this was to save Barry Gardiners ar5e from further kickings.

I'm sure you will agree that opposition needs to be by way of an alternative, as far as Brexit is concerned Labour aren't offering an alternative just a series of 'options'.

I'm glad we've finally got down to party politics.You'll have noticed that the Tories are HMG.It's their job to govern and to present Brexit optionts to the EU,not Labour's.Incidentally,the option that the EU made public yesterday was one of the three options being discussed and "agreed" in the first phase of Brexit negotiations concluded last year,(the fallback option).The other two options haven't been made public yet and presumably won't be until negotiations are finally concluded.

 

[callan]

I'm glad we've finally got down to party politics.You'll have noticed that the Tories are HMG.It's their job to govern and to present Brexit optionts to the EU,not Labour's.Incidentally,the option that the EU made public yesterday was one of the three options being discussed and "agreed" in the first phase of Brexit negotiations concluded last year,(the fallback option).The other two options haven't been made public yet and presumably won't be until negotiations are finally concluded.

To be fair Barna, I can understand why you appear to be totally confused in Labours role so far in regards to Brexit.

However it will not have escaped your attention that what Labour is now proposing as an 'option' is a complete u turn on what they supported by vote in parliament (as opposition but in line with HMG) barely 6 -8 weeks ago...and even voting down an amendment to keep the UK in the single market and customs union.



HMO are presumably now going to tear up the agreement made with EU, should they ever get into power?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

To be fair Barna, I can understand why you appear to be totally confused in Labours role so far in regards to Brexit.

However it will not have escaped your attention that what Labour is now proposing as an 'option' is a complete u turn on what they supported by vote in parliament (as opposition but in line with HMG) barely 6 -8 weeks ago...and even voting down an amendment to keep the UK in the single market and customs union.



HMO are presumably now going to tear up the agreement made with EU, should they ever get into power?

.

I repeat Labour are HMO.It is the Tories job as HMG to propose Brexit options and (eventually,once negotiations have been concluded with the EU) make the British public aware of them.The fallback option (published by the EU earlier this week) clearly doesn't appear acceptable to HMG (although they apparently agreed to it and signed off on it last year,at the end of the first phase of negotiations with the EU) .What are the Tories other two options I wonder? Suppose we'll find out by the end of March.

 

[mattitouk]

Just Waking up to the Italian election early results.

Another Brexit perhaps?...5* party seem to be the in the bidding for a coalition.

Is the EU falling apart?

It seems (other than us according to TUIB).. the right is growing in popularity, much across all of major Europe.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Just Waking up to the Italian election early results.

Another Brexit perhaps?...5* party seem to be the in the bidding for a coalition.

Is the EU falling apart?

It seems (other than us according to TUIB).. the right is growing in popularity, much across all of major Europe.

It is and will continue. There are many reasons attributed to the recent popularity rise in right wing politics across Europe but one, whether we like to address it or not, is immigration. Whether that be domestic European migration or of those from further afield it's a fact and no amount of decrying those that recognise it as being racist/facist etc will stop it's inexorable rise.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Just Waking up to the Italian election early results.

Another Brexit perhaps?...5* party seem to be the in the bidding for a coalition.

Is the EU falling apart?

It seems (other than us according to TUIB).. the right is growing in popularity, much across all of major Europe.

It is and will continue. There are many reasons attributed to the recent popularity rise in right wing politics across Europe but one, whether we like to address it or not, is immigration. Whether that be domestic European migration or of those from further afield it's a fact and no amount of decrying those that recognise it as being racist/facist etc will stop it's inexorable rise.

I can confidently predict that the right-wing PP (Partido Popular or Popular Party) will not increase its support in the Local and European elections to be held in Spain in 2019.

Needless to say, immigration whether "domestic European immigration" or "from further afield" is not an issue here.

Those predicting the break up of the EU as a reaction to increased immigration will be disappointed and are merely regurgitating their own profoundly illberal views on this topic.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I can confidently predict that the right-wing PP (Partido Popular or Popular Party) will not increase its support in the Local and European elections to be held in Spain in 2019.

Needless to say, immigration whether "domestic European immigration" or "from further afield" is not an issue here.

Those predicting the break up of the EU as a reaction to increased immigration will be disappointed and are merely regurgitating their own profoundly illberal views on this topic.

No one has mentioned Spain in particular so why you felt compelled to single that country out (twice) is a little strange, and no one mentioned the break up of the EU because of immigration. The eventual break up of the EU will be because of a multitude of reasons with uncontrolled migration being just one of them. Why do you persist in twisting peoples posts to suit you're replies?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No one has mentioned Spain in particular so why you felt compelled to single that country out (twice) is a little strange, and no one mentioned the break up of the EU because of immigration. The eventual break up of the EU will be because of a multitude of reasons with uncontrolled migration being just one of them. Why do you persist in twisting peoples posts to suit you're replies?

Spain happens to be the country I've lived in for a number of years.It is also an EU country where the right-wing government in Madrid is clearly struggling to hang onto power.Since that is demonstrably the case it makes it the perfect antidote for those who see Sunday's election results in Italy as a foretaste of what is in store for the rest of the EU.I also have first hand knowlege of France,since my wife is a French citizen and she has a property in the Midi,which we often visit.

As I said,I don't expect the EU to break up anytime soon, if ever.If you don't think anyone "mentioned the break up of the EU because of immigration" then I suggest you re-read your own post 1654 above, where you stated quite clearly that immigration was a factor in what you call "the rise of right-wing politics across Europe".

 

[Bielzibubz]

Spain happens to be the country I've lived in for a number of years.It is also an EU country where the right-wing government in Madrid is clearly struggling to hang onto power.Since that is demonstrably the case it makes it the perfect antidote for those who see Sunday's election results in Italy as a foretaste of what is in store for the rest of the EU.I also have first hand knowlege of France,since my wife is a French citizen and she has a property in the Midi,which we often visit.

As I said,I don't expect the EU to break up anytime soon, if ever.If you don't think anyone "mentioned the break up of the EU because of immigration" then I suggest you re-read your own post 1654 above, where you stated quite clearly that immigration was a factor in what you call "the rise of right-wing politics across Europe".

Spain is but a small part of the EU and certainly not indicative of the overall political map.

Yes, a factor in the rise of the right across Europe and because of that will also be a factor in it's eventual downfall. A factor in, a reaction to...We're arguing over semantics and not the point in question. Only time will tell Barna and we could argue the point day in day out and neither of us will change our viewpoint in any way.

One thing you cannot argue against is the rise of the right and it's anti EU policies and ideals. You could argue the points as to why it's come to this but the facts remain the same. Vast swathes of the EU population have had enough of the status quo and what they see as their social marginalisation and they are voicing that concern the only way they know will make a difference, at the polling booths.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Spain is but a small part of the EU and certainly not indicative of the overall political map.

Yes, a factor in the rise of the right across Europe and because of that will also be a factor in it's eventual downfall. A factor in, a reaction to...We're arguing over semantics and not the point in question. Only time will tell Barna and we could argue the point day in day out and neither of us will change our viewpoint in any way.

One thing you cannot argue against is the rise of the right and it's anti EU policies and ideals. You could argue the points as to why it's come to this but the facts remain the same. Vast swathes of the EU population have had enough of the status quo and what they see as their social marginalisation and they are voicing that concern the only way they know will make a difference, at the polling booths.

FYI,Spain is the 5th largest economy in the EU.Also in terms of land mass,Spain represents,of course,a much greater part of the EU than the UK. :winking:

As I've pointed out before, there is no sign here of a surge in the right-wing vote that has occured in some other EU states.That is also true in France where a centrist party won control at the last Presidential elections.

 

[Bielzibubz]

FYI,Spain is the 5th largest economy in the EU.Also in terms of land mass,Spain represents,of course,a much greater part of the EU than the UK. :winking:

As I've pointed out before, there is no sign here of a surge in the right-wing vote that has occured in some other EU states.That is also true in France where a centrist party won control at the last Presidential elections.

I don't doubt the size of the country, merely the influence Spain has on the EU as a whole. And as has been pointed out before Spain will do nowt to rock the EU gravy train it's currently riding with regard to the amount it pays in per capita and the amount it takes out in subsidies and benefits. (my opinion)

As I said, we'll see. And for what it's worth I personally would much rather see the EU survive despite how much I dislike it's corrupt and undemocratic influence if it means we don't return to the bad old days of right wing political extremes across Europe. I fear that will not be the case though unless things are done to address the concerns of those that are seeing the right wing as their only viable alternative to who they've had before and who they feel so very let down by.

Hopefully, the rise of the right across Europe will be the wake up call the EU requires to kick start the root and branch reforms it so desperately needs. I won't hold my breath though.