Brexit negotiations thread

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42867668

It's official Any Brexit deal will hit the UK economy says a government paper.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Bit difficult to vote members of the House of Lords,like Lord Lansley, out of office.:winking:

(Though I do see Peter Liiley's forthcoming gong is likely to be withheld whereas A.Mitchell would appear to be untouchable).

Anyone with a good memory will understand that this kind of behaviour is truly par for the course as far as Lansley goes.... ............what a self-serving, slimy individual this man is. Reading back on Wikipedia under the title of 'Public behaviour' is illuminating for the non initiated............and we won't even talk about his expenses claims!

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42867668

It's official Any Brexit deal will hit the UK economy says a government paper.

Yep, quite an eventful 24 hours, you can't take your eye off the ball! Will hopefully script something tonight when I have a bit more time.

 

[callan]

But we aren't remaining are we, so none of that has any consequence.

I asked because rather than have the old arguments we've all participated in for the last 18 months I thought it would be slightly more positive if welooked forward and considered how this would work.

At present however you wish to dress this up we are divided nation by the most narrowest of margins on leaving the EU....leaving throws up challenges as you have pointed out, whilst remaining either fully, or in a sum of the EU parts isn't straight forward either and equally presents itself with unknowns....so from that point of view I think my earlier post has relevance....after all how many on here actually accept the decision of the 2016 referendum?

Specifically taking into account your comments on Ireland, Cross border movements & Rules of origin ..we should not pretend that what we had with the EU was utopia...you will no doubt recall at the time of the Mad cow disease outbreak how cattle stocks in Eire increased massively as Cows were marched across a border to avoid being destroyed.

This is before we get onto in transit cargoes that massively distort actual export figures.

In terms of what Brexit should mean and deliver, from my own point of view it should be along these lines;

Leave the Customs union and secure a Free trade agreement using Koreas (not Canadas) as the blue print, this would include special status For Eire achieved by re writing our existing treaty.

In terms of regulation we should strive for equivalence or higher via the WTO or UN, our own kite mark is already a higher standard than the EU.
At the point of leaving we are fully harmonized and in accord.

Workers rights secured under the EU, should remain.

Immigration - End of the discriminatory freedom of movement for EU citizens, and have parliament debate and decide a new system.

Laws - we should make our own laws, and adopt other laws (EU or otherwise) if they make sense for us to do so....equivalence as well via our own courts could also be a way forward.

Projects / Research - I would look to work alongside the EU as we do now.

Ultimately I will not say that leaving the EU after 40 years is going to be easy....but just because something is difficult it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, does it?

 

[Lord Football]

At present however you wish to dress this up we are divided nation by the most narrowest of margins on leaving the EU....leaving throws up challenges as you have pointed out, whilst remaining either fully, or in a sum of the EU parts isn't straight forward either and equally presents itself with unknowns....so from that point of view I think my earlier post has relevance....after all how many on here actually accept the decision of the 2016 referendum?

Specifically taking into account your comments on Ireland, Cross border movements & Rules of origin ..we should not pretend that what we had with the EU was utopia...you will no doubt recall at the time of the Mad cow disease outbreak how cattle stocks in Eire increased massively as Cows were marched across a border to avoid being destroyed.

This is before we get onto in transit cargoes that massively distort actual export figures.

In terms of what Brexit should mean and deliver, from my own point of view it should be along these lines;

Leave the Customs union and secure a Free trade agreement using Koreas (not Canadas) as the blue print, this would include special status For Eire achieved by re writing our existing treaty.

In terms of regulation we should strive for equivalence or higher via the WTO or UN, our own kite mark is already a higher standard than the EU.
At the point of leaving we are fully harmonized and in accord.

Workers rights secured under the EU, should remain.

Immigration - End of the discriminatory freedom of movement for EU citizens, and have parliament debate and decide a new system.

Laws - we should make our own laws, and adopt other laws (EU or otherwise) if they make sense for us to so....equivalence as well via our own courts could also be a way forward.

Projects / Research - I would look to work alongside the EU as we do now.

Ultimately I will not say that leaving the EU after 40 years is going to be easy....but just because something is difficult it doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, does it?

Just for clarity, I used Ireland as an discussion point because it's easier to explain to the majority of our readers. Could have used any number of issues that simply would have everyone else other than you wondering what I was talking about. Fancy a chat about Roro? No? I wouldn't either.

So, we have a starting point. Thank you. This is what a leaver thinks Brexit should look like, and given that we are leaving looks feasible and reasonable on the face of it.

I have some concerns about how that would work in the real world (notably workers rights under a Tory leadership), but I've said enough. Comments, people?

 

[callan]

Just for clarity, I used Ireland as an discussion point because it's easier to explain to the majority of our readers. Could have used any number of issues that simply would have everyone else other than you wondering what I was talking about. Fancy a chat about Roro? No? I wouldn't either.

So, we have a starting point. Thank you. This is what a leaver thinks Brexit should look like, and given that we are leaving looks feasible and reasonable on the face of it.

I have some concerns about how that would work in the real world (notably workers rights under a Tory leadership), but I've said enough. Comments, people?

Sent you a PM on RORO.

In terms of workers rights a friend of mine who is at the GMB...claims we have lost more workers rights since entry to th EU than gained....think he was using the time line rather than the EU itself as a yard stick...laying equal blame at the foot of Scargill and Thatcher and the pursuit of Neo Liberalism.

Interesting piece by Kelvin Hopkins that looked at this slightly differently back in 2016.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politi...-protect-workers-rights-it-has-destroyed-them

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I'm happy to let our two opposing heavyweights slog out the technical details to which I'm not at the level to debate. Really privileged to have them on here and interesting to read their contrasting views from an insider position.
We all just about know our respective opinions on here so it doesn't serve much good continually going over the same ground and I understand LF's desire to change tack. There do seem to be a number of new elements emerging at amazing frequency. I've managed to re-connect with UK TV on line and am watching a number of series. Yet none have quite the number of twists and turns and drama of our real life Brexit...........perhaps they'll make a film of it one day?
So, we were told there were impact studies into the effect of Brexit........then we were assured that was all a myth and none exist........now we find (thanks to the leak....by whom?) that they do indeed exist. The findings are not very encouraging and apparently the harder the Brexit, the worse it is for the economy. It's good to know we don't have to worry, this is only a draft and whilst it includes a trade deal with the USA (:smile:) it doesn't take into account the Canada + + + deal that, we've anyway been told, we won't get with the EU............probably just as well!:smile: Anyway that's all OK because Steve Baker now reassures us that Whitehall Economic forecasts are not worth the paper they're written on.......... you couldn't make it up, could you? You understand what I mean about the pointlessness of watching fiction on TV when this unbelievable real life drama is rolling out in front of your eyes.
However the leaking of this document, interesting though it may be, has perhaps hidden some subtle movements today, which could be of even more significance and will strike fear into the hearts of all hard Brexiters.............those who haven't seen the writing on the wall already. The dramatic softening of tone from Liam Fox and even from the hardest of hard-liners Rees-Mogg indicates to me that they have looked over the political precipice and what they have seen has made them step back and accept to be more conciliatory. Big business, apart from a few oddballs, have to a man called for a softer Brexit...........when big business talks the Tory Party usually listens. The ground is being laid and even the opposition leader is gently being cajoled into coming off the fence and accepting what?..........the customs union? the single market? A second referendum? The Labour antennae are desperately trying to sniff out a change in public mood and opinion.....asking the question, are there any votes in it?
Although I am deeply committed to the European ideal, a belief which transcends any faults you can find with the EU.....and there are many; I do hold the rather perverse belief that the only logical Brexit is a Hard Brexit. What honestly is the point on expending all this time, all this effort, all this considerable expense, to find ourselves still in many ways tied to the EU in what is likely to end up an inferior position to when we were actually members.......it's total madness! In view of all this it is perhaps worth asking the question to those Brexiters on here; how are you going to deal with the betrayal........or do you still believe in La la land?

 

[rigsby]

From day one I never got the "What about the workers rights under the Tories" argument. Surely once were out and a GE is about British people rather than the whole world that will be to Labours advantage and the ordinary working classes.

For example the Tories introduced paid holidays in the 30's not because they wanted to but they would be voted out if they didn't....That's how you improve the life of the common people....Not force Italian wine growers to poison their land with a dangerous fertilizer because your a director of the company that supplies it.. Anyone who refuses to use the EU recommended brand will not get their subsidy......Now I know this might shock a few of you but the contract is worth £billions.

 

[Lord Football]

From day one I never got the "What about the workers rights under the Tories" argument. Surely once were out and a GE is about British people rather than the whole world that will be to Labours advantage and the ordinary working classes.

For example the Tories introduced paid holidays in the 30's not because they wanted to but they would be voted out if they didn't....That's how you improve the life of the common people....Not force Italian wine growers to poison their land with a dangerous fertilizer because your a director of the company that supplies it.. Anyone who refuses to use the EU recommended brand will not get their subsidy......Now I know this might shock a few of you but the contract is worth £billions.

If you've never got the workers rights and Tory argument, can I suggest you have a wee chat with your mate from the FBU. He'll explain it to you.

Dya know, you have me here Old Chum. I've no idea what you are talking about with your Italian Wine Producers. I've no personal experience of this, nor can I find anything on-line.

I know about regs that ban or limit the use of things like excretia and ammonia, but I can't find anything that stipulates you have to use a certain type of fertilizer. You got a legal reference or something?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-oppose-labour-motion-on-leaked-brexit-papers

See those leaked Brexit impact papers are likely to get published anyway.:thumbsup:

 

[rigsby]

If you've never got the workers rights and Tory argument, can I suggest you have a wee chat with your mate from the FBU. He'll explain it to you.

Dya know, you have me here Old Chum. I've no idea what you are talking about with your Italian Wine Producers. I've no personal experience of this, nor can I find anything on-line.

I know about regs that ban or limit the use of things like excretia and ammonia, but I can't find anything that stipulates you have to use a certain type of fertilizer. You got a legal reference or something?

My mate Paul Embery is anti EU. He thinks flooding the country with cheap labour drives down wages ,workers rights and increases the cost of housing etc.

He also believes it does nothing for the future of the former Eastern Block countries if their young people leave in to many numbers. He is of course 100% right. Which is why the London branch of the FBU voted out.

Wine growing article was in the Times. It may have been in something obscure like the travel section. They would all seem small time as the subsidy was £30,000 per year...If that helps.

 

[Lord Football]

So this multi billion is something you may have read in the Times.

If you can find a reference I'll read it. If not I'm gonna work on the basis you've misunderstood something.

 

[rigsby]

So this multi billion is something you may have read in the Times.

If you can find a reference I'll read it. If not I'm gonna work on the basis you've misunderstood something.

No they said its an EU wide standard. It was the Italians who wanted a choice as they claim to have scientific prove that it damages the soil. Even had photos of two different types of soil. It was definitely the Sunday Times.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No they said its an EU wide standard. It was the Italians who wanted a choice as they claim to have scientific prove that it damages the soil. Even had photos of two different types of soil. It was definitely the Sunday Times.

AKA the Sunset Times. :winking:

 

[Medway Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-oppose-labour-motion-on-leaked-brexit-papers

See those leaked Brexit impact papers are likely to get published anyway.:thumbsup:

Excellent news.

NAAAAHHHHHHTTTTTTTTT

 

[Medway Blue]

From day one I never got the "What about the workers rights under the Tories" argument. Surely once were out and a GE is about British people rather than the whole world that will be to Labours advantage and the ordinary working classes.

For example the Tories introduced paid holidays in the 30's not because they wanted to but they would be voted out if they didn't....That's how you improve the life of the common people....Not force Italian wine growers to poison their land with a dangerous fertilizer because your a director of the company that supplies it.. Anyone who refuses to use the EU recommended brand will not get their subsidy......Now I know this might shock a few of you but the contract is worth £billions.

Exactly this.

Does anybody really think that the Tories would attempt to strip workers rights, knowing full well that it will almost certainly cost them power? Or that, if they do strip rights, they will survive the next GE?

We don’t live in a Dictatorship. When a ruling party does something which ****s over millions of people in a big way by taking away something that is so entrenched in our day-to-day lives, we can make them pay in the next elections.

 

[Lord Football]

No they said its an EU wide standard. It was the Italians who wanted a choice as they claim to have scientific prove that it damages the soil. Even had photos of two different types of soil. It was definitely the Sunday Times.

After a bit of research, the only thing I can think you are talking about is the European Fertilizer Regulation. It seems to be the only EU law that covers this area. It doesn't do what you suggest it does, it just standardises the type of fertilizers you can use. Its not specific and certainly not restrictive. So, its either another piece of anti EU propaganda or something I simply can't find on the internet (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist)

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Exactly this.

Does anybody really think that the Tories would attempt to strip workers rights, knowing full well that it will almost certainly cost them power? Or that, if they do strip rights, they will survive the next GE?

We don’t live in a Dictatorship. When a ruling party does something which ****s over millions of people in a big way by taking away something that is so entrenched in our day-to-day lives, we can make them pay in the next elections.

I love Stewart Lee, very dry, lacks punchlines, but his work just creeps up on you and you are smirking but not always sure why

 

[Lord Football]

Exactly this.

Does anybody really think that the Tories would attempt to strip workers rights, knowing full well that it will almost certainly cost them power? Or that, if they do strip rights, they will survive the next GE?

We don’t live in a Dictatorship. When a ruling party does something which ****s over millions of people in a big way by taking away something that is so entrenched in our day-to-day lives, we can make them pay in the next elections.

Remind me how austerity worked then? You know where millions of people became worse off, either directly in their pocket or due to the lack of services, and how that particular Government was punished by getting elected again.

 

[rigsby]

Remind me how austerity worked then? You know where millions of people became worse off, either directly in their pocket or due to the lack of services, and how that particular Government was punished by getting elected again.

There are far to many ways to list and each person is affected differently. Under a Labour government Firefighters and Police had their pay cut for certain junior officer ranks and all of us had part of the pension stolen which affects us for the rest of our lives no matter who's in power or how well the economy is doing.