Brexit negotiations thread

[Massimo Giovanni]

lots in Cornwall, Wales, etc - regeneration work IIRC

Interesting, Cornwall was a very strong "out" area wasn't it?
I am there for a week break (and Plymouth game!) so I will make a mental note to look for EU funded work. We have had 4/5 holidays in Wales over the last decade but don't remember any EU signed works.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think you're also ignoring the arrogance of the EU in the past for not actually defending itself, and allowing negative publicity to be left unchallenged. If the EU had actually promoted itself over the years, and pointed out the positive effect it was having then the Remain campaign wouldn't be starting from such a poor position.

I accept the arrogance of the EU point but surely it was for pro-European UK politicians to defend the EU and its record in the UK? You're quite right to imply that the positive case for Remain (and there is one,of course) was never properly made in the Referendum campaign.All we had was Project Fear.

A very good and fair point. In my travels through Europe I have seen very many signs evidencing work paid for by the EU; however I am struggling to recall ever seeing one of those "advertising hoardings" in the UK - maybe I have seen a few in Scotland? is this because work hasn't been financed/done in the UK or just no signage?
The EU does also have it's own out of empire foriegn aid fund which finances projects across non EU Europe (such as Albania and Georgia) but also in Asia Minor and North Africa; and of course French Caribbean and Pacific colonies (but not in UK territories such as Falklands).

lots in Cornwall, Wales, etc - regeneration work IIRC

*** is quite right.I've seen the signs in Cornwall myself.That of course didn't stop the majority of people in Cornwall and Wales voting Leave.:facepalm:

 

[Bielzibubz]

I accept the arrogance of the EU point but surely it was for pro-European UK politicians to defend the EU and its record in the UK? You're quite right to imply that the positive case for Remain (and there is one,of course) was never properly made in the Referendum campaign.All we had was Project Fear.





*** is quite right.I've seen the signs in Cornwall myself.That of course didn't stop the majority of people in Cornwall and Wales voting Leave.:facepalm:

For very good reasons that you still fail to understand. Not everyone, despite you're blinkered belief, voted leave solely on financial and immigration issues.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

For very good reasons that you still fail to understand. Not everyone, despite you're blinkered belief, voted leave solely on financial and immigration issues.

IIRC the issues for Cornwall, for a large part, are CAP and fishing industry regulation/strangulation perceived to be laid at Brussels's door.

 

[Lord Football]

A very good and fair point. In my travels through Europe I have seen very many signs evidencing work paid for by the EU; however I am struggling to recall ever seeing one of those "advertising hoardings" in the UK - maybe I have seen a few in Scotland? is this because work hasn't been financed/done in the UK or just no signage?
The EU does also have it's own out of empire foriegn aid fund which finances projects across non EU Europe (such as Albania and Georgia) but also in Asia Minor and North Africa; and of course French Caribbean and Pacific colonies (but not in UK territories such as Falklands).

I have exactly the same experience. I was recently in Tallinn, where the EU Presidency was based at the end of the year. There were blue and white plaques all over the place. The same applies to pretty much everywhere else I've been from Lisbon to Helsinki. Nations are proud of their EU Membership. But not us.

Though, it didn't escape me that the Tories claimed credit for the new laws on charging to use debit cards. That was an EU regulation, and there are plenty of cases where a popular law has been incorrectly credited by the Government where an unpopular one has been sold of as "it came from Europe".

Though I have to say, it isn't for the EU to promote itself in the UK or anywhere else. All those blue plaques are put in place by Governments.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Loosely related to Brexit in as such it's just more words, smoke and mirrors.

So, France is allowing the Bayeux Tapestry to come to the UK to go on display at some time in the future and at some undisclosed venue. The first time it would have left French soil in 950 years. This is being banded about and promoted as something of a softening of attitudes towards the UK and it's stance on Brexit and the Calais border problem.

What you won't be hearing much of however is that it will take a minimum of 5 years just to plan the removal and transportation of the 70m tapestry, if indeed it can be removed and transported, which is very unlikely anyway.

It'll never reach these shores. NEVER, and Macron knows that, but don't let that stop you thinking that this is all very nice of those European partners across the Channel.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I have exactly the same experience. I was recently in Tallinn, where the EU Presidency was based at the end of the year. There were blue and white plaques all over the place. The same applies to pretty much everywhere else I've been from Lisbon to Helsinki. Nations are proud of their EU Membership. But not us.

Though, it didn't escape me that the Tories claimed credit for the new laws on charging to use debit cards. That was an EU regulation, and there are plenty of cases where a popular law has been incorrectly credited by the Government where an unpopular one has been sold of as "it came from Europe".

Though I have to say, it isn't for the EU to promote itself in the UK or anywhere else. All those blue plaques are put in place by Governments.

And I dare say put in place by Governments of countries that get out financially far far more from the EU pot than they put in. Of course they're going to love to promote it. Why wouldn't they. They're not going to shoot the horse they're riding on now are they?

 

[Lord Football]

And I dare say put in place by Governments of countries that get out financially far far more from the EU pot than they put in. Of course they're going to love to promote it. Why wouldn't they. They're not going to shoot the horse they're riding on now are they?

And I'd dare say you'd be wrong.

The only EU Countries I've been to where I've not seen one is Bulgaria (but that was mainly built by Russians) and France because I've not been there for many years. That includes Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Belgium, Sweden and Poland.

 

[londonblue]

Interesting, Cornwall was a very strong "out" area wasn't it?
I am there for a week break (and Plymouth game!) so I will make a mental note to look for EU funded work. We have had 4/5 holidays in Wales over the last decade but don't remember any EU signed works.

Cornwall was indeed very "out". Funnily enough the day after the referendum Cornwall council called on the government to continue with the £70-odd million yearly subsidy they get from the EU.

 

[londonblue]

I accept the arrogance of the EU point but surely it was for pro-European UK politicians to defend the EU and its record in the UK? You're quite right to imply that the positive case for Remain (and there is one,of course) was never properly made in the Referendum campaign.All we had was Project Fear.

If you can't defend yourself then why would you expect anyone else to do it for you? What I would say is that there is probably a joint responsibility...

 

[Bielzibubz]

And I'd dare say you'd be wrong.

The only EU Countries I've been to where I've not seen one is Bulgaria (but that was mainly built by Russians) and France because I've not been there for many years. That includes Germany, Netherlands, Italy, Belgium, Sweden and Poland.

OK, so let's be specific to the country you mentioned shall we. Estonia. Let's take 2016 as an example.

Total net contributions to the EU, €184.8m (0.14% of overall EU contributions)

Total received form the EU, €468.80m (2.22% of GDP and equivalent to €356.00 for every man woman and child over and above their contributions payments)

Of course they're going to promote the EU. They'd be mad not to. Bread buttered n all that.

 

[Lord Football]

OK, so let's be specific to the country you mentioned shall we. Estonia. Let's take 2016 as an example.

Total net contributions to the EU, €184.8m (0.14% of overall EU contributions)

Total received form the EU, €468.80m (2.22% of GDP and equivalent to €356.00 for every man woman and child over and above their contributions payments)

Of course they're going to promote the EU. They'd be mad not to. Bread buttered n all that.

Ok, lets be specific.

Since the Brexit vote I have seen blue EU plaques in the following.

Belgium. Netherlands. Denmark. Sweden. Poland. Portugal. Italy. Slovenia. Austria. Slovakia. Croatia. Malta. Germany. Estonia. Finland. Czech Republic. Funnily enough, that is 100% of all the EU countries I've visited since the vote.

Yeah, I get around a bit and yeah, I look.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Ok, lets be specific.

Since the Brexit vote I have seen blue EU plaques in the following.

Belgium. Netherlands. Denmark. Sweden. Poland. Portugal. Italy. Slovenia. Austria. Slovakia. Croatia. Malta. Germany. Estonia. Finland. Czech Republic. Funnily enough, that is 100% of all the EU countries I've visited since the vote.

Yeah, I get around a bit and yeah, I look.

And my point still stands. How many of those receive far more financially that contribute? I can't be arsed to do the research but I would hazard a guess the vast majority.

Any country that receives more than it contributes will naturally promote that which feeds it financially. I dare say it's not the only reason and I also accept many of those countries are far less Euro sceptic (although that's changing) than us Brits but it contributes to my point.

 

[Lord Football]

And my point still stands. How many of those receive far more financially that contribute? I can't be arsed to do the research but I would hazard a guess the vast majority.

Any country that receives more than it contributes will naturally promote that which feeds it financially. I dare say it's not the only reason and I also accept many of those countries are far less Euro sceptic (although that's changing) than us Brits but it contributes to my point.

Yes, you just stated the obvious. But you are still wrong, and I am not ever sure you understand what my point is (its ok, I'll reiterate it later).

So, let me recap.

You said "

put in place by Governments of countries that get out financially far far more from the EU pot than they put in.​

"

I said you was wrong.

You then used Estonia because it was the place I'd mentioned earlier or possibly because you knew it would fit your argument. Only you know.

I then gave you a list of other examples.

Now you then "can't be arsed to do the research" but I'll save you the effort. Some of them will get more like Estonia and some of them will pay more, like Germany.

So, the point I am making, which you've failied to grasp is....... Every Member State I've been to in the last two years does celebrate the work the EU has done to support projects, buildings and transport. What they get out or pay in, is not a factor in this. They all do it.

But I am not sure why we are still having these arguments, because, you know, you won.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Yes, you just stated the obvious. But you are still wrong, and I am not ever sure you understand what my point is (its ok, I'll reiterate it later).

So, let me recap.

You said "

put in place by Governments of countries that get out financially far far more from the EU pot than they put in.​

"

I said you was wrong.

You then used Estonia because it was the place I'd mentioned earlier or possibly because you knew it would fit your argument. Only you know.

I then gave you a list of other examples.

Now you then "can't be arsed to do the research" but I'll save you the effort. Some of them will get more like Estonia and some of them will pay more, like Germany.

So, the point I am making, which you've failied to grasp is....... Every Member State I've been to in the last two years does celebrate the work the EU has done to support projects, buildings and transport. What they get out or pay in, is not a factor in this. They all do it.

But I am not sure why we are still having these arguments, because, you know, you won.

I used Estonia purely because you mentioned it as a place you'd been to that promoted the EU flag and it's projects. I could have used a number of others that also get a disproportionate benefit from the funds they receive from the EU, but I didn't. I'm of the opinion that the amount they receive from the EU in relation to the amount they pay in has a bearing on their support and promotion of the EU in all it's guises and I'm also of the opinion that goes for the other countries that you've visited that have the same beneficial financial relationship with the EU.

I get you don't agree. You're of the opinion that the financial benefits received by a country from the EU has no bearing on that countries visual support for it. I disagree. That's it. Simple. No one has won. These are just opinions and just like arseholes, everyone has one.

And just because you've seen the support first hand in numerous countries doesn't mean you know all the reasons behind that support.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that part of the regeneration in Southchurch/Southend East is part funded by the EU. Haven't seen any blue signs to confirm that though.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Indeed. £180m in EU financing has gone or is going to the South East Local Enterprise Partnership with a proportion of that (don't know the exact figures) being allocated to the regeneration to parts of the Southend Borough.

I believe, but could be mistaken, that part of the private works going on down Vic Ave have in part been financed from EU grants.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

In Greece it is the part funding of large projects like bridges, under used new rail lines etc which is a large part of the debt problem. The EU part funded things with largely German and French companies picking up the huge contracts and using their own (German largely) steel and highly paid engineers to get the construction started with Greeks being paid small wages for the labour. Anyway these lovely projects have cost Greece a huge fortune, enriched many a German/French company and ensured that other German companies can buy up Greece stuff (like the airports) for a fraction of the true price. Stupid business for the Greeks, clever for the "winners" however some companies have been investigated and convicted for corruption over some of the works.
For me it is all a bit smelly AND that has been a large part of my disdain of the EU; (also the lack of transparency)

Good job Carillion didn't get the contracts!

 

[Lord Football]

Indeed. £180m in EU financing has gone or is going to the South East Local Enterprise Partnership with a proportion of that (don't know the exact figures) being allocated to the regeneration to parts of the Southend Borough.

I believe, but could be mistaken, that part of the private works going on down Vic Ave have in part been financed from EU grants.

We should a get a blue plaque but up then, if only so I can tick the UK off on my "seen a blue plaque" list.

PS, when I said. You've won, I mean that in opposition to the very tiresome line of "you lost".


Anyway, I am off to Cape Verde now. Where they spend Euros. So it will be more expensive than it should be.

 

[Lord Football]

In Greece it is the part funding of large projects like bridges, under used new rail lines etc which is a large part of the debt problem. The EU part funded things with largely German and French companies picking up the huge contracts and using their own (German largely) steel and highly paid engineers to get the construction started with Greeks being paid small wages for the labour. Anyway these lovely projects have cost Greece a huge fortune, enriched many a German/French company and ensured that other German companies can buy up Greece stuff (like the airports) for a fraction of the true price. Stupid business for the Greeks, clever for the "winners" however some companies have been investigated and convicted for corruption over some of the works.
For me it is all a bit smelly AND that has been a large part of my disdain of the EU; (also the lack of transparency)

Good job Carillion didn't get the contracts!

That's almost the hard left argument you espouse there. It's not wrong in my view, but the argument is really one against capitalism as opposed to the EU and if I am honest, Greece do not, and never have had, either the economic power or tax competence to be in the EU was a really bad thing (hence they've tightened up the requirements).