Brexit negotiations thread

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Ridiculous idea.....We could end up sending our guys to enforce martial law in Catalonia in a few years time. When in reality as they are proud independent people, did you see those Firefighters defending their own innocent people from a brutal beating. We should give our full support.... Don't you think ?

Anyway doesn't matter, the point is the people we elect should decide where we send our troops and who to kill. If your fine with the slaughter of over 1m harmless Iraqi women and children because the US/Israeli war machine can con you with propaganda, then vote Blair or Tory....Its the same thing. If your not conned by the great modern War Racket vote Corbyn and he will stop it because he is no puppet to the US. The only down side is he might become best friends with people who just might want to kill us...Like McGuiness or Adams for example.

If Your the sort of person who doesn't want a convicted Somalian child rapist living next door because it would be inhumane to deport him but at the same time you absolutely know its a war crime to be bombing people in their own country. Then you probably are already a bit of a free thinker and should think Independent.

Just about the worst people I can think of to give control over our armed forces would be the corrupt criminals in Brussels. Absolutely not under any circumstances for all the obvious reasons. Including our proud history that some of you sneer at whilst enjoying your privilege gained by all those poor lads, some of whom don't even have a grave.

Of course I condemn Spain sending military police to attack peaceful protests and did condemn it when it happened.To suggest that an EU army would be sent in to do that is very far away from reality. Ive never heard any of our politicians suggest the possibility of signing up to an EU army to deal with internal policing.


The power of Veto is one of the things that slows the mechanics of the EU down but also means that hypotheticals such as this would not become reality.


This sounds like Project Fear.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Thank you Benfleet A1, I do wonder if some of the Remoaners are being slightly simple or just blinker to a coming situation and it's realities.
The French are odd for sure; their great strength IMO is that they always do what is best for France and feck the moral or other consequences: AND conversely that is at the same time their great weakness if it comes to being a "partner" with them................as the Bosnians (and Dutch) found out the hard way.

General George S. Patton — 'I would rather have a German division in front of me than a French one behind me.'

not your usual style - you are better than that

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

'Britain must accept higher levels of immigration from India if it hopes to sign a free trade agreement after Brexit, a senior Indian diplomat has warned, as he predicted it could take up to a decade to secure the deal.'


From the Telegraph today though this has been stated previously and the same was said for Australia. The 'tens of thousands' constantly renewed Tory ambition for immigration seems unachievable within or outside of the EU if we want trade deals.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Ridiculous idea.....We could end up sending our guys to enforce martial law in Catalonia in a few years time. When in reality as they are proud independent people, did you see those Firefighters defending their own innocent people from a brutal beating. We should give our full support.... Don't you think ?

Anyway doesn't matter, the point is the people we elect should decide where we send our troops and who to kill. If your fine with the slaughter of over 1m harmless Iraqi women and children because the US/Israeli war machine can con you with propaganda, then vote Blair or Tory....Its the same thing. If your not conned by the great modern War Racket vote Corbyn and he will stop it because he is no puppet to the US. The only down side is he might become best friends with people who just might want to kill us...Like McGuiness or Adams for example.

If Your the sort of person who doesn't want a convicted Somalian child rapist living next door because it would be inhumane to deport him but at the same time you absolutely know its a war crime to be bombing people in their own country. Then you probably are already a bit of a free thinker and should think Independent.

Just about the worst people I can think of to give control over our armed forces would be the corrupt criminals in Brussels. Absolutely not under any circumstances for all the obvious reasons. Including our proud history that some of you sneer at whilst enjoying your privilege gained by all those poor lads, some of whom don't even have a grave.

Of course I condemn Spain sending military police to attack peaceful protests and did condemn it when it happened.To suggest that an EU army would be sent in to do that is very far away from reality. Ive never heard any of our politicians suggest the possibility of signing up to an EU army to deal with internal policing.


The power of Veto is one of the things that slows the mechanics of the EU down but also means that hypotheticals such as this would not become reality.


This sounds like Project Fear.

There is a dedicated thread to discuss the events in Catalonia.I suggest you guys discuss the matter there,where I'll be quite happy to chip in with my own opinions.

http://www.shrimperzone.com/vb/showthread.php?94301-Catalonia-Independence

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

There is a dedicated thread to discuss the events in Catalonia.I suggest you guys discuss the matter there,where I'll be quite happy to chip in with my own opinions.

http://www.shrimperzone.com/vb/showthread.php?94301-Catalonia-Independence

which is what I was referring to - opinions on that already expressed. But if the claim is that we would sign up to an EU army to be used for such things it needed to be pointed out that would not happen. Yet another analysis of Iraq and yet another analysis of Corbyn don't seem like the best use of this thread so ignored.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/24/irish-border-hard-brexit-ireland

There's a good case above, made for remaining in the Customs union (or at least a Customs union), to solve the Irish border question in the Brexit talks.

 

[londonblue]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/24/irish-border-hard-brexit-ireland

There's a good case above, made for remaining in the Customs union (or at least a Customs union), to solve the Irish border question in the Brexit talks.

What's your opinion?

 

[rigsby]

which is what I was referring to - opinions on that already expressed. But if the claim is that we would sign up to an EU army to be used for such things it needed to be pointed out that would not happen. Yet another analysis of Iraq and yet another analysis of Corbyn don't seem like the best use of this thread so ignored.

Totally relevant about an EU army. The great British public will never let the best armed forces in Europe be run by the worst Politicians in Europe.

The great British public don't trust Corbyn not to hand over the army to the EU. One of the reasons is Blair's lies to commit genocide in Iraq, on behalf of the very people who have now mad him a multi millionaire.

That's why we voted out and that's why Labour couldn't defeat the worst Tory election campaign and leader in living. memory.

Until you accept those facts rather than blame the voting public you will always be on the losing side.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Totally relevant about an EU army. The great British public will never let the best armed forces in Europe be run by the worst Politicians in Europe.

The great British public don't trust Corbyn not to hand over the army to the EU. One of the reasons is Blair's lies to commit genocide in Iraq, on behalf of the very people who have now mad him a multi millionaire.

That's why we voted out and that's why Labour couldn't defeat the worst Tory election campaign and leader in living. memory.

Until you accept those facts rather than blame the voting public you will always be on the losing side.

Sigh. It's so tedious when you argue against points that no one has made about things that haven't happened.

There are so many angles and elements to the EU debate that you don't need to invent stuff.


Who on here has said we should have an EU army and that is should be used to intervene in internal issues such as Catalonia? No one.


Which UK politician has said we should have an EU army and that is should be used to intervene in internal issues such as Catalonia? No one.


'Corbyn handing over our army to the EU' - behave yourself, he didn't even want to send troops to Iraq or Syria, why would he suddenly be the person who backs suppression of Catatonia who have one of the fiercest anti-fascist histories. This argument makes no sense whatsoever.


What am I blaming the public for? Nothing, I didn't even mention the public. You are talking rot.


Rigsby is back everyone.

 

[rigsby]

Sigh. It's so tedious when you argue against points that no one has made about things that haven't happened.

There are so many angles and elements to the EU debate that you don't need to invent stuff.


Who on here has said we should have an EU army and that is should be used to intervene in internal issues such as Catalonia? No one.


Which UK politician has said we should have an EU army and that is should be used to intervene in internal issues such as Catalonia? No one.


'Corbyn handing over our army to the EU' - behave yourself, he didn't even want to send troops to Iraq or Syria, why would he suddenly be the person who backs suppression of Catatonia who have one of the fiercest anti-fascist histories. This argument makes no sense whatsoever.


What am I blaming the public for? Nothing, I didn't even mention the public. You are talking rot.


Rigsby is back everyone.

I thought that was the foundations of the Remain argument......Things that never have and never will happen

WW3,
emergency budget,
house price collapse,
NHS grinding to halt ( nurses numbers arrived from overseas up 3,000 in the last quarter)
Britain wont be allowed to trade with Europe (total lie)
Young people wont be able to work in Europe (young people have now seen through that BS)
Banks moving to Germany ( now its only skeletal staff in a small offices to get round EU laws)
No investment in Britain. ( Michael Bloomberg, former Mayor of NY has just opened a 1m-sq-ft state of the art £1bn European financial and data media company near St Paul's......Stating "London will always be the financial centre of Europe"

Yes Rigsby is back.....Lets face it the game is up son, no amount of pointing at the big red bus will change that.

I think it was Mark Twain who said "its easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled."

Even staunch Remain journalists are now ( without mentioning him) admitting that Mr Twain had a point......How about you?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

What's your opinion?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/24/irish-border-hard-brexit-ireland

There's a good case above, made for remaining in the Customs union (or at least a Customs union), to solve the Irish border question in the Brexit talks.

Personally I'd just stay in the customs union if not the single market too..HMG is currently desperately trying to put together a deal involving a customs union and no hard border with Ireland.Think the failure of that will scotch any chance we have of moving onto Stage 2 of the talks in December and probably lead to us crashing out of the EU on WTO rules in 2019.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I thought that was the foundations of the Remain argument......Things that never have and never will happen

WW3,
emergency budget,
house price collapse,
NHS grinding to halt ( nurses numbers arrived from overseas up 3,000 in the last quarter)
Britain wont be allowed to trade with Europe (total lie)
Young people wont be able to work in Europe (young people have know seen through that BS)
Banks moving to Germany ( now its only skeletal staff in a small offices to get round EU laws)
No investment in Britain. ( Michael Bloomberg, former Mayor of NY has just opened a 1m-sq-ft state of the art £1bn European financial and data media company near St Paul's......Stating "London will always be the financial centre of Europe"

Yes Rigsby is back.....Lets face it the game is up son, no amount of pointing at the big red bus will change that.

I think it was Mark Twain who said "its easier to fool people than to convince them they have been fooled."

Even staunch Remain journalists are now ( without mentioning him) admitting that Mr Twain had a point......How about you?

Schoolboy error - a lot of what you are quoting are Tory arguments not Remain arguments.


WW3, emergency budget, £350 million per week to the NHS - all Tory lies.


NHS grinding to a halt - staffing issues due to the fact that nursing in particular relies on immigration - valid point (minus the emotive language).


House prices collapse - not sure anyone went that far but falling housing prices would be a positive IMO.


Britain won't be allowed to trade with Europe - laughable, I don't think anyone said that. But trade will most likely be subject to tariffs, red tape and restrictions.


Young people won't be allowed to work in Europe - not quite but if you remove freedom of movement then you are on a visa system with obvious restrictions


Banks moving to Germany - any EU country really, not their whole set up but we will no longer be a simple gateway to the EU, there are obviously issues created that don't currently exist


No investment in Britain - again that's too emotive - we have a large internal market as we are all consumers, but if we have restricted access to our nearest external markets then certain investments become less profitable - common sense. Markets from further afield - that is the hope, but it's a leap in the dark.


The games is up? I believe the correct response is 'LOL'.


The red bus existed and its slogan was a big part of the Leave campaign and Boris Johnson was still quoting is as fact just a few months ago.


Me - yeah I was a big reader of Mark Twain as a child - very talented story teller.


In fact I was probably reading Twain at the time you were voting Labour. For a bit of context - when did you last vote Labour and what policies persuaded you to vote that way?

 

[Bielzibubz]

So I ask you this very unlikely question *** and TUIB (although he's blocked so he's kind of irrelevant)

Those that want to remain but baulk at the idea of a European consolidated army run from Brussels, which I might add is a stated aim of the EU, Juncker went on record in 2015 saying that's exactly that was what was wanted and needed. How do you square the contradictory elements of your political stance.

Would you encourage JC, if he were PM and we we're still members, to use the UK veto and possibly go against the wishes of the other 26 nations?

And, with the EU's well documented history of back door policy and regulatory implementation doesn't this, taken verbatim from a current EU treaty we signed up to, worry you just a little bit "the progressive framing of a common defence policy that might lead to a common defence"

And while the above does concern me slightly I also appreciate there are at present no plans to form an EU army and even if the proposals put forward in 2013 were officially put on the table it's also been agreed that a condition is that operational duties are owned and run by those member states.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

So I ask you this very unlikely question *** and TUIB (although he's blocked so he's kind of irrelevant)

Those that want to remain but baulk at the idea of a European consolidated army run from Brussels, which I might add is a stated aim of the EU, Juncker went on record in 2015 saying that's exactly that was what was wanted and needed. How do you square the contradictory elements of your political stance.

Would you encourage JC, if he were PM and we we're still members, to use the UK veto and possibly go against the wishes of the other 26 nations?

And, with the EU's well documented history of back door policy and regulatory implementation doesn't this, taken verbatim from a current EU treaty we signed up to, worry you just a little bit "the progressive framing of a common defence policy that might lead to a common defence"

And while the above does concern me slightly I also appreciate there are at present no plans to form an EU army and even if the proposals put forward in 2013 were officially put on the table it's also been agreed that a condition is that operational duties are owned and run by those member states.

why ask a question of someone if you can't read their answer?

 

[Bielzibubz]

why ask a question of someone if you can't read their answer?

Because SZ tells me when he's posted and I have the option to either view the post or not. When put together with the context of the question or indeed the way the thread is going or gone I can more or less predict with 100% accuracy whether the posts will be worth reading or not. That's why, especially now that links are banned and actual opinions are required.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Because SZ tells me when he's posted and I have the option to either view the post or not. When put together with the context of the question or indeed the way the thread is going or gone I can more or less predict with 100% accuracy whether the posts will be worth reading or not. That's why, especially now that links are banned and actual opinions are required.

I've never blocked anyone so have no idea that you have options within that. If he doesn't answer it may be he has blocked you! I can see how this would impede the flow of conversation.

EU Military. No UK politician has advocated it, and we have a veto, so it's not happening, unless we leave the EU - at which point it is more likely to happen.


But where does that leave us? It's widely agreed that our own conventional forces are under funded. So if we leave the EU and they do go ahead with this - what do Leavers feel about a 26 nation army in our doorstep? Should we be diverting funds to our own army to counterbalance this? Has a massive expansion of our armed forces been factored in as an additional cost of Brexit.


Seems to me that - remain in EU, no EU military.
Leave EU - then EU military becomes more likely.


Was the inadequate funding of our forces discussed during the referendum or is this yet another element that the over simplified campaigning failed to highlight?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Because SZ tells me when he's posted and I have the option to either view the post or not. When put together with the context of the question or indeed the way the thread is going or gone I can more or less predict with 100% accuracy whether the posts will be worth reading or not. That's why, especially now that links are banned and actual opinions are required.

Doubt if your clairavoyant powers can tell you that, as a good democrat, I (reluctantly) respect the referendum result.

The argument now is about what sort of Brexit we eventually end up with? That particular question certainly wasn't on the ballot paper.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I've never blocked anyone so have no idea that you have options within that. If he doesn't answer it may be he has blocked you! I can see how this would impede the flow of conversation.

EU Military. No UK politician has advocated it, and we have a veto, so it's not happening, unless we leave the EU - at which point it is more likely to happen.


But where does that leave us? It's widely agreed that our own conventional forces are under funded. So if we leave the EU and they do go ahead with this - what do Leavers feel about a 26 nation army in our doorstep? Should we be diverting funds to our own army to counterbalance this? Has a massive expansion of our armed forces been factored in as an additional cost of Brexit.


Seems to me that - remain in EU, no EU military.
Leave EU - then EU military becomes more likely. Why would it?

Was the inadequate funding of our forces discussed during the referendum or is this yet another element that the over simplified campaigning failed to highlight?

Why should I, as a 'leaver' be concerned about a 26 nation army on our doorstep? Unless of course your suggesting that it might pose a threat to us in some way.

I don't quite get what the underfunding of our armed forces has to do with the Brexit debate but I'll play along. Remain or leave the creation of a EU army remains a very unlikely scenario.

But.......If the leaving of the EU ultimately creates a centralised European army (highly unlikely) with it's operations run from Brussels with a German or French commander having overall responsibility for the troops of the other 25 nations and we're not a part of it but it then in turn means the UK greatly expanding on it's own inadequate funding of it's own armed forces then that to my mind is a win win situation. We alone, as in the UK, should have the final say as to when, where, how and why we send our troops on to foreign soil and put them in harms way.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Why should I, as a 'leaver' be concerned about a 26 nation army on our doorstep? Unless of course your suggesting that it might pose a threat to us in some way.

I don't quite get what the underfunding of our armed forces has to do with the Brexit debate but I'll play along. Remain or leave the creation of a EU army remains a very unlikely scenario.

But.......If the leaving of the EU ultimately creates a centralised European army (highly unlikely) with it's operations run from Brussels with a German or French commander having overall responsibility for the troops of the other 25 nations and we're not a part of it but it then in turn means the UK greatly expanding on it's own inadequate funding of it's own armed forces then that to my mind is a win win situation. We alone, as in the UK, should have the final say as to when, where, how and why we send our troops on to foreign soil and put them in harms way.

Unless you have full faith in the EU that they would never pose a threat then a 26 nation army on your doorstep is something that you would need to take stock of when looking at national security.

Was it Johnson or Farage who said the EU was continuing the aggrandisement of Germany that Hitler had failed to achieve? Anyone who agrees with that sentiment would I suspect feel a pang of fear that we would lose our veto on the creation of an army to back up the EU.

3 Leavers have brought up the notion of an EU army and been asking what Corbyn would do about that on here in the last couple of days. If we are all agreed that it's not going to happen then case closed as far as I am concerned. It was a case that didn't need opening as there is enough to untangle re the process of leaving the EU without bringing in theoreticals.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

So, in the end, perhaps it's not going to be about the money?.............that now appears to be the least of the obstacles prohibiting us progressing to trade talks. Continuing involvement of the ECJ may smooth over the problems of EU citizens in the UK and British citizens in Europe but it ain't going to please the hard Brexiters of the Tory right..........and if that's not enough, why not consider the intractable situation of the Irish border?...........who saw that one coming! :smile: With the Irish Republic and the DUP both starting sabre rattling can anyone come up with a solution??? No hard border for the Irish.................. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/phil-hogan-ireland-eu-commissioner-brexit-chaos
The Unionists agree over the open border but NO WAY will they countenance staying in the Customs Union! http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-theresa-may-brexit-nigel-dodds-a8076256.html Work that one out Mrs May, show a bit of creativity and imagination. :smile: This is surely not just red lines being crossed and they are difficult enough. These are red white and blue lines and orange white and green ones. I fear these are going to prove an entirely different ball game and an impossible one to arrange.
This, of course, will help clear the air! https://news.sky.com/story/liam-fox-puts-uk-at-odds-with-ireland-over-border-issue-11144904 So, the EU won't progress to trade talks until a solution is offered to the Irish border question and Dr Fox won't consider offering a solution to the Irish border question, until talks move onto trade............that's clear, isn't it???