Brexit negotiations thread

[rigsby]

the wording on a big red bus was also the main focus on the big Leave leaflet mail-out - so clearly they thought that was a big selling point even if you don't.

I'm sure that if you pm a link to a mod they will post it up for you, but Paul Embery does not make 'the left wing argument' he makes his own argument, there is no one left wing argument on this, just various opinions.

Its no good trying to 'denounce' Paul Embery when he was speaking on behalf of the whole of the London branch of the FBU. They backed the leave campaign because we deal with the rough end of freedom of movement. That's FBU officials, thousands of members and thousands of out of trade members.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Its no good trying to 'denounce' Paul Embery when he was speaking on behalf of the whole of the London branch of the FBU. They backed the leave campaign because we deal with the rough end of freedom of movement. That's FBU officials, thousands of members and thousands of out of trade members.

oh Riggers you never change do you - saying someone does not speak on behalf of the whole of the left wing is not denouncing them is it?

 

[rigsby]

If you mean by that, that many people were afraid of immigration, (which I think you do), then I'd agree with you.

Ironically, even after Brexit, immigration will still be higher than the "tens of thousands" promised in recent Tory manifestos.Unless the UK economy tanks completely,of course.

The little Englander, racist, xenophobe slurs have been done to death. Once again I thank you for that because its was your insults that made good honest people, like the 65% in Southend, head to the polling stations and vote OUT.

Time to except you lost and in your case concentrate on the civil war that is on the horizon in Spain. I look forward to selecting the best talent fleeing from Spain whilst refusing those that won't benefit our country.

Being a strong, proud and independent Britain will see us prosper for decades. Why....because we are so well placed geographically and financially that we will taking the best talent from a failing Europe. We will trade with the rest of the world without the ridiculous shackles of the EU. And guess what the rest of the world wants to trade with us.

So Tangled time to move on and look to the future, rather than staring at down at your half empty glass of red in the last of the Autumn Spanish sunshine. :winking:

 

[rigsby]

oh Riggers you never change do you - saying someone does not speak on behalf of the whole of the left wing is not denouncing them is it?

Why not Comment on Paul Embery's views rather than dismiss them. We know he doesn't speak for the whole of the left but he does speak for the millions who voted out.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Well, Shrimpers Are Magic, the commonly regarded figure is £20bn if you are UK, €60bn if you are EU.

No one has actually agreed what needs to be included to get a figure, hence, no exact figure exists.

May has said we will pay what we owe and and what have agreed to pay into within the financial cycle (up to 2020). Working out what that is, like with most things Brexit, is something far more complicated than can be worked out on the back of a fag packet.

Agreed, it's complicated and will take time. So why are so many up in arms about the time it is taking and the fact that David Davis isn't giving a word for word account of the days business?
I really do feel folk should use a bit more back bone rather than losing their nerve two minutes in.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Why not Comment on Paul Embery's views rather than dismiss them. We know he doesn't speak for the whole of the left but he does speak for the millions who voted out.

I haven't dismissed them, I don't know what words you are referring to as you have posted them here. I'm sure he says things constantly so you would need to be more specific.

 

[rigsby]

I haven't dismissed them, I don't know what words you are referring to as you have posted them here. I'm sure he says things constantly so you would need to be more specific.

You mean you have never heard of the TUAEU.....That's Trade Unions Against the EU. I suggest you google Paul Embery Brexit. As the zones top political poster I find it strange you have no idea what he stands for.

You will find far from being the individual opinions of Paul Embery, as you claimed, he is speaking on behalf of millions of the real working class.

I look forward to your opinions on the TUAEU view about Europe.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

You mean you have never heard of the TUAEU.....That's Trade Unions Against the EU. I suggest you google Paul Embery Brexit. As the zones top political poster I find it strange you have no idea what he stands for.

You will find far from being the individual opinions of Paul Embery, as you claimed, he is speaking on behalf of millions of the real working class.

I look forward to your opinions on the TUAEU view about Europe.

its customary when asking a question on specific information to provide that information or a direct link to it in order to make sure we are talking about the same thing

 

[Lord Football]

In that case I'll ask a question....Why do you disagree with the left wing argument. Paul Embery of the FBU makes a great case of why freedom of movement has failed. If I could post a link I would.

By the way freedom of movement was the main reason people voted leave. Claiming it was the wording on a big red bus is in fact a huge lie in itself.

There is more than one left wing argument....

1. Leaving the EU will bring capitalism down. Its based on the economic chaos leaving would bring about, and thus result in capitalism failing.

2. Solidarity with workers in Greece. I can't actually work out why this is even an argument. The Greeks don't like the EU, and they should have never been allowed to join. Its one reason why the EU have changed the rules considerably since then, but I can understand why some would look at (for example) Albania joining to be a dangerous thing.

3. We can't nationalise stuff. I've read some very eloquent things about this (indeed, it was something Farage came up with in the early days). Actually, you can. The whole argument is based some flawed legal interpretation - but its never been tested by the ECJ.

4. Embery. The only thing I know about him is that he managed to **** of a significant number of LGBTQ people with some comments about transsexuals (I've not read them, so no further comment). But freedom of movement, its an odd thing isn't it. Seems it is not as straightforward or as easy as we thought. A few farming people have some major concerns and it seems we don't have an unemployment problem after all. Messy that one.

The big red bus. I can only report on what I see on various bits of social media, talking to people. I'll except some will find it easier to blame the bus.... but, yeah, £360m on the NHS, It can't be denied it was said, it was published and it was only scotched after the referendum.

And because I've checked my memory, it wasn't Farage's bus..... unbelievably, it was Gove and Johnson's. People we've put in charge of things.

 

[Lord Football]

You mean you have never heard of the TUAEU.....That's Trade Unions Against the EU. I suggest you google Paul Embery Brexit. As the zones top political poster I find it strange you have no idea what he stands for.

You will find far from being the individual opinions of Paul Embery, as you claimed, he is speaking on behalf of millions of the real working class.

I look forward to your opinions on the TUAEU view about Europe.

I'll play. I was in the past significantly involved in the Trade Union Movement...... probably stood on a couple of FBU picket lines in my time and certainly did campaigning with Mick Wrack.

According the TUAEU website they say some bits....

• Yes to workers’ rights - excellent. Though its EU regulations that have stopped the Tories doing things to working hours, leave, sickness absence. Not sure of the logical of leaving the Tories completely to do what they like to worker's rights. They don't have a good record.
• No to TTIP - wont be happening under Trump, We might end up signing something with the US out of desperation at some point (hope we don't).
• Exit the EU on the basis of socialist policies - this doesn't mean much
• Keep Britain out of the Eurozone - we aren't in it and never will be (and that is the best decision we ever made)
• No to austerity whether from Brussels or Britain - this doesn't mean much. All the recent austerity came from Britain
• Reject EU treaties that curtail democracy, encourage social dumping and demand privatisation - Again, I am not sure what this is aiming up.
• No to EU policies that privatise our transport and postal services - much the same way the TFEU stops the EU from standing in the way of natioanlisation, it similarly cannot insist on privatisation. The view of the ECJ is that they wouldn't get in the way of a government decision.
• No to the EU-US Trade Agreement which threaten our NHS - EU-US trade agreement is TTIP, see the first point.
• No to unequal EU trade agreements - not sure what this is. The key word is "agreement", which means both sides agree to them. They're not unequal.
• Scrap EU rules designed to stop member states from implementing independent economic policies - such as? I am not sure this is actually a thing.
• Develop sustainable manufacturing, agriculture and fishing industries in Britain - You can blame Thatcher for the lack of manufacturing. I thought our agriculture and fishing industries were doing relatively well. Stand to be corrected. I know the fishing industry was pro leave, but then I see the Grimsby story (which seeks to make the port an exemption from Brexit)
• Repeal anti-trade union EU court rulings and rules which undermine collective agreements - The UK has the worst trade union rights in Europe. They are the bare minimum under EU law, They aren't going to get any better.
• No to racism and fascism - Absolutely. Though I think we can do this better as being part of a bigger thing. But that's a matter of opinion.
• Yes to international solidarity of working peoples - Yep, agree. Though again, its not really a Brexit thing.
• No to EU militarisation and an EU army - yeah, I'd agree with that. Crackpot idea.

If I am honest, I don't know anyone from the left who supports the above view that isn't a member of the SWP or the Soclialist Party.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I've just been reading leading Brexit campaigner John Redwood's advice not to invest in the UK. Is this some kind of sick joke?

www.forbes.com/sites/francescoppola...estors-to-take-their-money-out-of-the-uk/amp/

 

[rigsby]

http://www.shrimperzone.com/vb/inlinemod.php?threadid=91570&p=

Good piece here from Paul Embery on the failure of free movement in the EU...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/paul-embery/freedom-of-movement_b_13112058.html

There you go *** a nice link for you to read. Now were are in no doubt what Paul Embery is saying

I look forward to your opinions.

 

[rigsby]

There is more than one left wing argument....

1. Leaving the EU will bring capitalism down. Its based on the economic chaos leaving would bring about, and thus result in capitalism failing.

2. Solidarity with workers in Greece. I can't actually work out why this is even an argument. The Greeks don't like the EU, and they should have never been allowed to join. Its one reason why the EU have changed the rules considerably since then, but I can understand why some would look at (for example) Albania joining to be a dangerous thing.

3. We can't nationalise stuff. I've read some very eloquent things about this (indeed, it was something Farage came up with in the early days). Actually, you can. The whole argument is based some flawed legal interpretation - but its never been tested by the ECJ.

4. Embery. The only thing I know about him is that he managed to **** of a significant number of LGBTQ people with some comments about transsexuals (I've not read them, so no further comment). But freedom of movement, its an odd thing isn't it. Seems it is not as straightforward or as easy as we thought. A few farming people have some major concerns and it seems we don't have an unemployment problem after all. Messy that one.

The big red bus. I can only report on what I see on various bits of social media, talking to people. I'll except some will find it easier to blame the bus.... but, yeah, £360m on the NHS, It can't be denied it was said, it was published and it was only scotched after the referendum.

And because I've checked my memory, it wasn't Farage's bus..... unbelievably, it was Gove and Johnson's. People we've put in charge of things.

You can read about Paul Embery on the other Brexit thread where I have posted a link.

No he doesn't want to bring down capitalism down. Regarding your attempt to discredit him over the LGBT comments he was speaking on behalf of female members of the FBU.

To quote Mr Embery ....."Sadly I find those that shout loudest about 'tolerance' and 'diversity' are often the same people who demand absolute conformity when it comes to political opinions.

By the way its Matt Wrack

 

[Lord Football]

You can read about Paul Embery on the other Brexit thread where I have posted a link.

No he doesn't want to bring down capitalism down. Regarding your attempt to discredit him over the LGBT comments he was speaking on behalf of female members of the FBU.

To quote Mr Embery ....."Sadly I find those that shout loudest about 'tolerance' and 'diversity' are often the same people who demand absolute conformity when it comes to political opinions.

By the way its Matt Wrack

Catch up Riggers. I've commented TUAEU, post 890

But, please don't be putting words in my mouth. What I said was "4. Embery. The only thing I know about him is that he managed to **** of a significant number of LGBTQ people with some comments about transsexuals (I've not read them, so no further comment)."

Hardly a discrediting.... just merely a mention that in TU parlance, it is the only thing I know about him - and I am not about to waste any time researching it to score a point here.

Matt Wrack....yeah, my bad. (been out of that game for 5 and a bit years now)

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The little Englander, racist, xenophobe slurs have been done to death. Once again I thank you for that because its was your insults that made good honest people, like the 65% in Southend, head to the polling stations and vote OUT.

Any xenophobic comments were post- Brexit.Usually from the sort of people behind the spike in hate crime that took place after the Brexit result.

Time to except you lost and in your case concentrate on the civil war that is on the horizon in Spain. I look forward to selecting the best talent fleeing from Spain whilst refusing those that won't benefit our country.

I can confidently predict that there won't be another civil war in Spain any time soon.Trust me. Puigdemont is no Lenin.:sad:Though things are pretty hectic here,atm.As to your second point, the UK has already benefitted greatly from the influx of many young unemployed Spaniards.

Being a strong, proud and independent Britain will see us prosper for decades. Why....because we are so well placed geographically and financially that we will taking the best talent from a failing Europe. We will trade with the rest of the world without the ridiculous shackles of the EU. And guess what the rest of the world wants to trade with us.

It would appear that many EU business leaders don't appear to share your optimism about trade.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-41962813

So Tangled time to move on and look to the future, rather than staring at down at your half empty glass of red in the last of the Autumn Spanish sunshine. :winking:

While today is certainly a bright,sunny day, I'll have to wait until this evening, (after work), before I can enjoy a beer or two.But thanks for the thought. anyway.:smile:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41978013

The EU Withdrawal Bill goes into Committee stage this week.Can't wait.:zzzzz:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Here'a a solution to the hard border problem in Ireland.

Elect a Labour government to stay in the customs union and the single market.End of problem.Simples.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I am strongly starting to believe that there is NO solution to the main Brexit issues that ALL the 27 will all agree to; they (some of them) don't want there to be a deal, & for sure one or a few will veto anything put forward (encouraged behind the scene by France/Germany).
And I suppose the UK Gov is expecting that to be the situation and, hopefully, planning accordingly.:sad:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I am strongly starting to believe that there is NO solution to the main Brexit issues that ALL the 27 will all agree to; they (some of them) don't want there to be a deal, & for sure one or a few will veto anything put forward (encouraged behind the scene by France/Germany).
And I suppose the UK Gov is expecting that to be the situation and, hopefully, planning accordingly.:sad:

agreed, which is why they need to stop suppressing the 'no deal' reports and let the public know what the outcome is likely to be. The whole process has been a farce so far. No deal is looking very likely so we need to know what that entails.

 

[mattitouk]

A rare visit for me in this political forum, but for what it's worth, IMO The UK will out live the EU (as we know it now).

Many parts of Spain, Italy, France, Holland, Germany, Greece and even some of the new eastern European countries are getting fed up with the dictatorship from the Brussels HQ. Especially on freedom of movement. It seems that Macron & Merkel decide quotas on illegal immegrants to other countries, other than their own, in order to save face.

Anyway, back to the Brexit debate. I feel we have a strong hand, in terms of the import / export of goods & control of our borders, add to that new international deals that were previously subject to big tax rates by the EU. IE: Australia, New Zealand, China, USA etc..