Brexit negotiations thread

[Massimo Giovanni]

Project fear MG?

Is the world a safe place? are open borders a safe policy? is the UK safer with the current border controls? does civil strife, bombings, terror etc need considering in the present and into the future AND (as) I believe the answer is YES; BUT the "aspiration" ideas of the EU will make everyone involved weaker - not stronger - just look at how so many EU countries shirk their NATO responsibilities for an example. (Junker's Luxembourg is THE worse!)
So project fear? NO, just an assessment of how things are moving.
The EU has, to a large extent, partly caused the rise of dangerous Nationalistic parties across the continent and further changes and enlargement into "new" countries will cause more extremism and also raise the stakes with non NATO countries.
If you think the £ and UK economy falling for a number of years, is the BIG BIG issue for you then stay a Remainer but if you have concerns for the future, of more than money, think again about the other issues and weigh them up.

 

[Lord Football]

And another Remainer chants on about money, money, money. Answer the point on the future of the EU with the direction Junker and co are (quoting Barna) aspiring.
Are you sure you are a Lord? maybe as the House of Lords does have a certain reputation.

No, its an internet username.

And

No, I merely quantified the amount of money all you Brexiteers seem to be whining around whilst reminding you of the biggest lie in British political history.

 

[Bielzibubz]

HS2 is being funded by private companies on the whole. Not a good comparison.

On the whole no. As of July 2017 only £6.6 billion has been contracted out to the private sector and with the final bill expected to reach £80 billion and more and with the full private/public funding split not known you can bet it's going to cost you and me £X billions regardless.

The crux of my argument still stands however but you sidelined that little bit.

 

[Lord Football]

On the whole no. As of July 2017 only £6.6 billion has been contracted out to the private sector and with the final bill expected to reach £80 billion and more and with the full private/public funding split not known you can bet it's going to cost you and me £X billions regardless.

The crux of my argument still stands however but you sidelined that little bit.

Without wishing to take this down a debate on HS2, the Government's business case calculates that for every £1 invested will deliver benefits worth more than £2.50 to the UK economy: a total of more than £103bn. You can argue that, but its not really the point.

The point is, HS2 has been costed, and benefits identified.

Brexit hasn't been costed (because it wasn't government policy until the referendum, and as we are seeing, no one really knows).

 

[Bielzibubz]

20 pages of gripe, moan, whinge, link, quote, preach and then yet more incessant moaning from the self riotous Left as if any of it is going to make one iota of difference to either the outcome or to peoples opinions on here.

You know, I used to laugh when people called this site Shrimpermoan and think, oh it's not that bad, but now I can see why :winking: I really thought this thread would die a death until such time anything substantial happened with regard to Brexit but, excepting one or two posters who still manage to present balanced and coherent arguments all that seems to be written daily now is post after post of political point scoring the likes of which we're all sick to the back teeth of hearing on Question time. Or is that just me?

I guess venting your frustrations on here might be therapeutic in some way but seriously, come on, give it a rest :smile:


(and no, the irony of moaning about moaning isn't lost on me :thumbsup:)

 

[Bielzibubz]

Without wishing to take this down a debate on HS2, the Government's business case calculates that for every £1 invested will deliver benefits worth more than £2.50 to the UK economy: a total of more than £103bn. You can argue that, but its not really the point.

The point is, HS2 has been costed, and benefits identified.

Brexit hasn't been costed (because it wasn't government policy until the referendum, and as we are seeing, no one really knows).

No, and somewhat agreed and possibly an argument for another thread perhaps but, just because it's not been costed doesn't mean it can't be financially viable. Something I believe it will be and one of the many reasons I voted leave. Does not knowing the final cost or economic outcome make it wrong?

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

No, its an internet username.

And

No, I merely quantified the amount of money all you Brexiteers seem to be whining around whilst reminding you of the biggest lie in British political history.

Well Lord Football, (lover of Soviets?) you have twisted the money moaning to place it with the Leavers on this thread when if you read back it is the Remainers who keep on and on about the cost and trade implications.

And again you ignore the other, equally important? issues that remaining part of the EU as it is now and into what it is "aspiring" to become.
Some of the Remainers have fame on this chat site for never answering a point AND dodging a response(to the actual point questioned) & it appears to be a growing Remaining trend.

Ps. claiming allegiance to Lords and Soviets maybe a tinsy weany bit of fun,ha ha, but not in a manner above that of stuff from our recently left us Rusty Trump, perhaps a lot lower? Non?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

And that's a point I think hasn't been made as often as it should. Sometimes it's not all about money. Sometimes it's about a lot more than that. Sometimes it's about looking to the National long term future, not the short to medium term monetary costs. Sometimes it's about national identity, sovereign rights, self determination and being able to make, change and abide by the laws that WE decide WE want to make, amend and abide by. The argument against closer financial and political integration, amongst other issues voted for at the Referendum, are becoming somewhat lost in this constant squabble about the divorce bill.

If we as a country can afford the £55.2 billion cost of HS2 then I'm quite happy to pay £30 billion or so to the EU to leave.

that's the other level of irony - at the moment we have a government who swerved their own law on a fixed year Parliament, went to court twice to try to limit Parliament's role in Brexit, presented a two year Queens Speech that bore very little resemblance to their manifesto, withheld information on Trident from a Parliamentary vote, are withholding Brexit impact reports from Parliament, are withholding Universal Credit reports from Parliament, have refused to vote on two big opposition motions in Parliament - at the time where we are being urged to ignore the financial lies because we are bringing back democracy to the UK it would be an appropriate time for the government to show some respect for UK democracy.

 

[rigsby]

No, its an internet username.

And

No, I merely quantified the amount of money all you Brexiteers seem to be whining around whilst reminding you of the biggest lie in British political history.

What's going to war with Iraq got do with Brexit

 

[Lord Football]

What's going to war with Iraq got do with Brexit

Welcome back.

That'd be an interesting debate.... the biggest lie in British Political History.

Iraq War v Farage's Bus......

I think more people believed the latter.

 

[Lord Football]

Well Lord Football, (lover of Soviets?) you have twisted the money moaning to place it with the Leavers on this thread when if you read back it is the Remainers who keep on and on about the cost and trade implications.

And again you ignore the other, equally important? issues that remaining part of the EU as it is now and into what it is "aspiring" to become.
Some of the Remainers have fame on this chat site for never answering a point AND dodging a response(to the actual point questioned) & it appears to be a growing Remaining trend.

Ps. claiming allegiance to Lords and Soviets maybe a tinsy weany bit of fun,ha ha, but not in a manner above that of stuff from our recently left us Rusty Trump, perhaps a lot lower? Non?

What do you think the EU is aspiring to become?

And just for the record.

The EU isn't perfect. Never said it is. There are valid reasons why people would want to leave. In fact, there are some left wing arguments for leaving (which I don't agree with, btw). I think the reasons to stay outweigh those, hence I am remainer.

But. I understand there has been a vote. I didn't agree with some of the comments the Leave campaign made - particularly funding the NHS and the ease of trade deals - but then again, I though the Remain campaign was woeful, negative and took the vote for granted. (and I blame Cameron for that).

Given the result of the ballot, we are leaving. On that basis, I hope it works. I have serious doubts that it will, mainly because I don't think our politicians really understand what it entails, and I don't think there is enough time, people or knowledge to get us into a place where it can.

I've got a background of international trade, and know how the EU works in that respect. So, yes, you'd expect me to talk about it. Wouldn't you.

But, if I am asked a question, I'll try and answer it (and if you read back, I have quite a lot).

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Welcome back.

That'd be an interesting debate.... the biggest lie in British Political History.

Iraq War v Farage's Bus......

I think more people believed the latter.

Once again, MONEY over lives! As Victor would say "Unbelievable!"

 

[MK Shrimper]

Once again, MONEY over lives! As Victor would say "Unbelievable!"

I don't think that was what LF was alluding to at all.

 

[Bielzibubz]

that's the other level of irony - at the moment we have a government who swerved their own law on a fixed year Parliament, went to court twice to try to limit Parliament's role in Brexit, presented a two year Queens Speech that bore very little resemblance to their manifesto, withheld information on Trident from a Parliamentary vote, are withholding Brexit impact reports from Parliament, are withholding Universal Credit reports from Parliament, have refused to vote on two big opposition motions in Parliament - at the time where we are being urged to ignore the financial lies because we are bringing back democracy to the UK it would be an appropriate time for the government to show some respect for UK democracy.

Regardless of what laws this government has swerved or not they are OUR laws, made by a government of THIS country and OURS to either amend, change, swerve, dodge or otherwise. They are NOT a set of laws passed by a set of unelected political mandarins.

Once again you miss my point completely and try to twist and turn the argument to suit your own political frustrations.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I don't think that was what LF was alluding to at all.

Maybe not MK but the point is the left and the Remainers on here seem hell bent on this whole money issue and ignore the elements of the debate we were having a year ago. Back then we could log on here and get stuck in to some sensible arguments about the many aspects of Brexit and how it was thought it would effect our lives going forward. Now it seems just about the money, political point scoring (as I mentioned previously) and seeing who can whinge the most.

It would be so easy to take snippets from any number of Brexit supporting media outlets and counter all of the arguments put forward on here by the predominantly left leaning Remainers but really, what's the point. They'll still come on here and continue to bleat on and on about the £350m on the side of the bus. They'll still continue to find all manner of things they don't like and agree with about this Governments Brexit negotiation strategy and I dare say they'll continue to ignore the original arguments that myself and many other Brexiteers put forward all those months ago.

There is a reason why those advocating an EU Brexit have been so quiet on this thread for a number of weeks and months now (myself included) It's not because we believe it's all going tits up and we don't have valid arguments any more or that we've changed our minds. It's because this thread has become oh so very tiresome and predictable. Every day it's the same posters posting the same gripes and moans. You can almost predict what's going to be posted in here and by who by watching the news in the morning.

 

[callan]

Welcome back.

That'd be an interesting debate.... the biggest lie in British Political History.

Iraq War v Farage's Bus......

I think more people believed the latter.

Farage's bus?....as you say people believe things that simply aren't true.

 

[rigsby]

What do you think the EU is aspiring to become?

And just for the record.

The EU isn't perfect. Never said it is. There are valid reasons why people would want to leave. In fact, there are some left wing arguments for leaving (which I don't agree with, btw). I think the reasons to stay outweigh those, hence I am remainer.

But. I understand there has been a vote. I didn't agree with some of the comments the Leave campaign made - particularly funding the NHS and the ease of trade deals - but then again, I though the Remain campaign was woeful, negative and took the vote for granted. (and I blame Cameron for that).

Given the result of the ballot, we are leaving. On that basis, I hope it works. I have serious doubts that it will, mainly because I don't think our politicians really understand what it entails, and I don't think there is enough time, people or knowledge to get us into a place where it can.

I've got a background of international trade, and know how the EU works in that respect. So, yes, you'd expect me to talk about it. Wouldn't you.

But, if I am asked a question, I'll try and answer it (and if you read back, I have quite a lot).

In that case I'll ask a question....Why do you disagree with the left wing argument. Paul Embery of the FBU makes a great case of why freedom of movement has failed. If I could post a link I would.

By the way freedom of movement was the main reason people voted leave. Claiming it was the wording on a big red bus is in fact a huge lie in itself.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Regardless of what laws this government has swerved or not they are OUR laws, made by a government of THIS country and OURS to either amend, change, swerve, dodge or otherwise. They are NOT a set of laws passed by a set of unelected political mandarins.

Once again you miss my point completely and try to twist and turn the argument to suit your own political frustrations.

I'm not 'once again' missing your point, your point was very easy to understand, as is mine - at the time where people are capitalising words like OUR laws and THIS country to show pride in our institutions our government seem to be doing their utmost to devalue our constitutional processes. This is a valid point - at the time where democracy is looking to become more nationalised they should be highlighting its value not reducing its value.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

In that case I'll ask a question....Why do you disagree with the left wing argument. Paul Embery of the FBU makes a great case of why freedom of movement has failed. If I could post a link I would.

By the way freedom of movement was the main reason people voted leave. Claiming it was the wording on a big red bus is in fact a huge lie in itself.

the wording on a big red bus was also the main focus on the big Leave leaflet mail-out - so clearly they thought that was a big selling point even if you don't.

I'm sure that if you pm a link to a mod they will post it up for you, but Paul Embery does not make 'the left wing argument' he makes his own argument, there is no one left wing argument on this, just various opinions.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

In that case I'll ask a question....Why do you disagree with the left wing argument. Paul Embery of the FBU makes a great case of why freedom of movement has failed. If I could post a link I would.

By the way freedom of movement was the main reason people voted leave. Claiming it was the wording on a big red bus is in fact a huge lie in itself.

If you mean by that, that many people were afraid of immigration, (which I think you do), then I'd agree with you.

Ironically, even after Brexit, immigration will still be higher than the "tens of thousands" promised in recent Tory manifestos.Unless the UK economy tanks completely,of course.