Brexit negotiations thread

[callan]

Fine! We all know that the transition period is just a breather to try and sort out the completely intractable difficulties of a smooth exit from the EU...........IT'S NOT A SOLUTION! Please tell me where the Labour Party stands regarding the single market, custom's union and free movement of Labour etc etc POST 2021.

Hot off the press from Labours Conference...Here is Keir Starmer;

If we were in government, we would build a new progressive partnership with the EU. We would negotiate a final deal that ensured continued co-operation and collaboration with our EU partners in all fields. And a final deal, that retained the benefits of the customs union and the single market. Options for achieving this should not be swept off the table.

Subject, of course to negotiations, remaining in a form of customs union with the EU is a possible end destination for Labour.

We are also flexible as to whether the benefits of the single market are best retained by negotiating a new single market relationship or by working up from a bespoke trade deal. No rash, ideological red lines preventing a sensible deal. No fantastical, ‘blue sky’ proposals.

 

[Lord Football]

Noting the German election. The AfD did horribly well last night. As a far right reactionary party with an anti EU manifesto promise, you can bet your bottom dollar that Merkel will be doing all she can to prove that leaving the EU isn't smart.

Dreadful result for the UK.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

What's going on here?......................agreeing with Callan! :omg: .................but I'm diametrically opposed to his views on Brexit! :smile:

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'm afraid that no degree of patience is going to solve the situation of the basic split in your party. Labour supporters in the south may be largely remain but surely that can't be said of those in the north? The direction at the moment is strictly non-committal, seemingly in the vain hope that things will somehow sort themselves thus not requiring the need to come down on one side or the other. The likelihood is that this won't work and there will soon be a make your mind up time for the Labour Party which risks alienating either your voters in the north or the south.
Yet, as Mr Kahn didn't go quite as far as to suggest, there is a solution. We could have the continuation of 'free movement of labour' just in London and the south of England. Perhaps this is what May was alluding to when she suggested that the EU should be creative and imaginative! :winking:

There isn't specifically a split in the party on the EU - there is a split in the country - and both Labour and the Tories reflect that. UKIP and LibDems are appealing to Leave / Remain - Labour and the Tories are trying to appeal to both (though the Tories seem less inclined to appeal to Remainers - but there is a vague attempt). Labour have to go through the motions respecting the referendum result. Davis and May need to be given enough rope - and every indication is that they will hang themselves with it. The deal that Davis will secure I expect to look nothing like the one Leavers thought they were voting for. And when that happens I expect Labour to push for a second referendum. The current problem is that we are still dealing with projections and assumptions that can be swept aside as 'project fear' like they were first time round.
I have every faith that Labour policy on EU will be what is best for the country at the point where a final decision needs to be made. In the meantime there are plenty of other things to focus on to mend society's ills and good progress is being made on promoting progressive policies.

 

[callan]

Noting the German election. The AfD did horribly well last night. As a far right reactionary party with an anti EU manifesto promise, you can bet your bottom dollar that Merkel will be doing all she can to prove that leaving the EU isn't smart.

Dreadful result for the UK.

I'm not so sure, had Merkel polled as well as she has in the past then it could be interpreted as some sort of vindication of both hers and to an Extent the EU's positions on debt, the Migrant crisis and so on.

Whilst the AFD did well, I think this is more of a protest vote akin to what we have seen elsewhere throughout Europe with the rise of populist parties.

If as ever the Answer to Europe's problems is let's have more Europe, then she may end up strengthening more populism...which she can ill afford to do.

I think this may have more impact on Macrons plans rather than our own in regards to Brexit.

 

[Lord Football]

I'm not so sure, had Merkel polled as well as she has in the past then it could be interpreted as some sort of vindication of both hers and to an Extent the EU's positions on debt, the Migrant crisis and so on.

Whilst the AFD did well, I think this is more of a protest vote akin to what we have seen elsewhere throughout Europe with the rise of populist parties.

If as ever the Answer to Europe's problems is let's have more Europe, then she may end up strengthening more populism...which she can ill afford to do.

I think this may have more impact on Macrons plans rather than our own in regards to Brexit.

A bit like the Brexit referendum vote then!

You may be right, but the Germans will take a rise in far right politics seriously enough to ensure their arguments are easily defeatable. Politically for Merkel and for the good of Germany itself, this may well manifest itself in an unhelpful way for the UK.

But hey, in this world of Trumpism and Brexitism and Kimism, who knows....

 

[callan]

A bit like the Brexit referendum vote then!

You may be right, but the Germans will take a rise in far right politics seriously enough to ensure their arguments are easily defeatable. Politically for Merkel and for the good of Germany itself, this may well manifest itself in an unhelpful way for the UK.

But hey, in this world of Trumpism and Brexitism and Kimism, who knows....

If the arguments are as clear as you say, then the AFD wouldn't be where they are now....and the politics of the far right wouldn't be flourishing across the continent.

Junckers speech to the union last week was full of more Europe, closer integration etc etc.....More Europe all round eh LF?....that is the only argument being made....no reform, no change....no difference.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

This is a Joke right?

From Labours Manifesto...ambiguity at it's finest...

It said: “We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain.”

From the Leader of the Party;

23 July: Negotiate access to the single market, but not membership
Jeremy Corbyn said that the UK would have to leave the single market because staying in it is “dependent on membership of the EU”. He said that instead, the UK should reach a trade agreement with the trading bloc that gives the UK the same benefits (i.e. tariff-free access).

However....

Keir Starmer has said (as you point out) that the UK should stay in the Single Market for a transitional period....

Tom Watson seems to have a different view as he tells us that the UK 'could' stay in the single market permanently.

Sadiq Khan wants full membership for London?...plus continued freedom of movement?

Perhaps you will share with us how Labour are going to achieve all of this?

The manifesto no longer applies to the transition period as Labour's postion on that was clarified over the summer.As you say by Keir Starmer.It's precisely his clear ideas that the Tories have appropriated as their own policy.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

If the arguments are as clear as you say, then the AFD wouldn't be where they are now....and the politics of the far right wouldn't be flourishing across the continent.

Junckers speech to the union last week was full of more Europe, closer integration etc etc.....More Europe all round eh LF?....that is the only argument being made....no reform, no change....no difference.

On the contrary, Germany has finally paid the price for Mutti's bravery in 2015.She now has 5 years to get the right in Germany back onside.

Where do you see the far right "flourishing across the continent" exactly? Certainly not in France nor in Germany where they won only 13% of the vote.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Well, it really looks as though the talks went well today.......looks like Maybot's trip to Florence was a real success in advancing negotiations! Like trade talks, no discussion on a transitional period until there are advances on the old thorny questions of citizens' rights, the divorce bill and Ireland. Davis announces today that, "he has ruled out settling Britain's divorce bill without first moving to talks about Britain's future relationship with the EU – which Britain wants to include a transition period." Have we got deadlock????

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Who the hell listens to experts anyway??? :winking:............

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...rket-custom-union-exports-trade-a7965871.html

..............and who gives a flying f**k about Brexit negotiaions anyway when there are far more interesting and important things to deal with like, who will be the next Tory leader. :smile:

 

[callan]

The manifesto no longer applies to the transition period as Labour's postion on that was clarified over the summer.As you say by Keir Starmer.It's precisely his clear ideas that the Tories have appropriated as their own policy.

Clear as mud Barna....deliberately so.

On the contrary, Germany has finally paid the price for Mutti's bravery in 2015.She now has 5 years to get the right in Germany back onside.

Where do you see the far right "flourishing across the continent" exactly? Certainly not in France nor in Germany where they won only 13% of the vote.

Austria, France, and the Netherlands in addition to Greece and Italy all have had far right political parties causing concern...and now of course Germany.

Was this the case ten years ago, or twenty?....you are older than me Barna so you will with consummate ease be able to demonstrate that the far right in Europe are struggling...and not flourishing.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Clear as mud Barna....deliberately so.



Austria, France, and the Netherlands in addition to Greece and Italy all have had far right political parties causing concern...and now of course Germany.

Was this the case ten years ago, or twenty?....you are older than me Barna so you will with consummate ease be able to demonstrate that the far right in Europe are struggling...and not flourishing.

You forget UKIP from your list.And we all know what happened to them! :winking:

I'm certainly old enough to remember demonstrating in favour of the Anti-Nazi League and against the NF.Don't hear much of them these days ,either.Or the BNP for that matter.

 

[MK Shrimper]

You forget UKIP from your list.And we all know what happened to them! :winking:

I'm certainly old enough to remember demonstrating in favour of the Anti-Nazi League and against the NF.Don't hear much of them these days ,either.Or the BNP for that matter.

"Britain First" have rallies occasionally. Usually about 8 people turn up and moan about Muslamic rayguns.

 

[callan]

You forget UKIP from your list.And we all know what happened to them! :winking:

I'm certainly old enough to remember demonstrating in favour of the Anti-Nazi League and against the NF.Don't hear much of them these days ,either.Or the BNP for that matter.

Did you not understand the question I asked?

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

"Britain First" have rallies occasionally. Usually about 8 people turn up and moan about Muslamic rayguns.

the IT guy at a company I used to work at is now a senior member of Britain First. So strange when that came to light and I tried to remember any conversations I had with him. Never had any inkling that was the way he thought.

 

[MK Shrimper]

the IT guy at a company I used to work at is now a senior member of Britain First. So strange when that came to light and I tried to remember any conversations I had with him. Never had any inkling that was the way he thought.

I'd imagine the views that they have would end up getting you fired if you aired them at work. Certainly would here.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'd imagine the views that they have would end up getting you fired if you aired them at work. Certainly would here.

well he was made redundant and I was sacked but neither to do with politics

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

You forget UKIP from your list.And we all know what happened to them! :winking:

I'm certainly old enough to remember demonstrating in favour of the Anti-Nazi League and against the NF.Don't hear much of them these days ,either.Or the BNP for that matter.

Nearly everything that happens in UK and European politics at the moment is because of UKIP. Not bad for a party who only had one MP.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Nearly everything that happens in UK and European politics at the moment is because of UKIP. Not bad for a party who only had one MP.

Granted UKIP pushed the Tories into giving the UK the referendum on Brexit.Granted they divided the Tories and helped to create the present mess over Brexit in UK politics.That's nothing to be proud oif in my book.In any case UKIP are clearly finished as as an electoral force in UK politics.

Your claim about UKIP having a major influence on European politics is also wildly exagerated.