Brexit negotiations thread

[Spaceman Spiff]

The point is that the contagion has been contained (so far), albeit in the case of Greece, at an extremely high price.

Agreed, it has. They kept Greece in at all costs and it did the trick.

 

[Bielzibubz]

The two decisions that you outline were both mentioned in the excellent hour long BBC2 Programme:"Inside Europe,Ten Years of Turmoil:Saving the Euro" which was broadcast on Monday night.

The point is that the contagion has been contained (so far), albeit in the case of Greece, at an extremely high price.

Agree with what you say but are you condoning The Troikas and the EU's systematic destruction of another countries current and future economy and it's people as something that was worth the sacrifice. Or, to use a bit of typical EU speak ....TINA...'There Is No Alternative'

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Problem is that is where one of our borders is. The word 'borders' is stated by May every time she is asked a question about Brexit. 'Our borders, but not that one' waters down the message somewhat.

Yes, of course that is one of our borders. No, it was not one of the borders they were talking about in relation to controlling immigration before the referendum, as mentioned in my reply.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Yes, of course that is one of our borders. No, it was not one of the borders they were talking about in relation to controlling immigration before the referendum, as mentioned in my reply.

Why control immigration across most of your borders and not all of them? I'm very aware that there was never an agreed method to leave but if their campaigners wanted to state 'we didn't mean THAT border' that would be a very flawed argument.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Just a thought.I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party could be prevailed upon to abstain (rather than vote against) when there's a second meaningful vote (which,apparently,won't now be next week) on May's Brexit plan?

That would certainly obviate the need for a no deal Brexit and may well be the only way out of this mess.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Agree with what you say but are you condoning The Troikas and the EU's systematic destruction of another countries current and future economy and it's people as something that was worth the sacrifice. Or, to use a bit of typical EU speak ....TINA...'There Is No Alternative'

Absolutely not.But I find myself agreeing with Corbyn's "Remain and reform" remarks.Sounds like a pretty good slogan to me.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Just a thought.I wonder if Jeremy Corbyn's Labour party could be prevailed upon to abstain (rather than vote against) when there's a second meaningful vote (which,apparently,won't now be next week) on May's Brexit plan?

That would certainly obviate the need for a no deal Brexit and may well be the only way out of this mess.

No. Why facilitate a bad deal? No deal can be removed, no one needs to vote for something inadequate because of that threat.
Corbyn has written to May today and said explicitly what a deal would need to look like to get Labour backing - it looks nothing like her's, but the option has been given to her.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

No. Why facilitate a bad deal? No deal can be removed, no one needs to vote for something inadequate because of that threat.
Corbyn has written to May today and said explicitly what a deal would need to look like to get Labour backing - it looks nothing like her's, but the option has been given to her.

So in effect unless the PM adopts Corbyn's deal we are faced with no deal?
What are the chances of May backing down and doing what Corbyn wants?
A big fat zero that's what. Corbyn could end up with a huge revolt from within his own party, he's playing a very dangerous game.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Absolutely not.But I find myself agreeing with Corbyn's "Remain and reform" remarks.Sounds like a pretty good slogan to me.

But Barna, even you must agree, the EU has and will never contemplate and kind of meaningful reform. Reform means a reversal of it's stated aims and the means by which it intends to implement them. Won't happen.

 

[blues exile]

Agree with what you say but are you condoning The Troikas and the EU's systematic destruction of another countries current and future economy and it's people as something that was worth the sacrifice. Or, to use a bit of typical EU speak ....TINA...'There Is No Alternative'

TINA was coined by the laissez faire Victorian Herbert Spencer and of course one of Thatcher's favourite soundbites. Neo Lib justification for market economy.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

TINA was coined by the laissez faire Victorian Herbert Spencer and of course one of Thatcher's favourite soundbites. Neo Lib justification for market economy.

Cobblers. Market just means choice. The alternative to that is no choice. We’re heading back to the horseshoe theory and communism / fascism again which has been pointed out to you before, but as ever your tin ear means you just don’t listen.

 

[Rob Noxious]

I fear that Mrs May is in for an almighty Clash with the good burghers of Brussels today. It seems that this could be a case of London calling straight to hell though I'm sure she'd deny it's going to be that bad. Whatever happens, I really can't see her sashaying with Donald Tusk with a bit of Lover's Rock as she tries desperately to take complete control in these forlorn-looking negotiations. I'm not down though … this has been an incredible drama with lots of twists and turns and there are still plenty of career opportunities for her political death or glory yet!

 

[GBJ]

Rightly or wrongly, does anyone believe Tusk’s comments were actually helpful?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I make you right today, Rob Noxious. This will get noisier the closer we get to squeaky bum time before the inevitable 11th hour deal is done (including a temporary extension of article 50 to allow for legislation). Completely normal in EU negotiations, completely expected and also why extending article 50 before a deal that can get support both sides of the channel is concluded was always a totally pointless remainer/Labour electioneering ploy.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

But Barna, even you must agree, the EU has and will never contemplate and kind of meaningful reform. Reform means a reversal of it's stated aims and the means by which it intends to implement them. Won't happen.

I would agree that it would certainly be a difficult process.Probably a necessary one though given Brexit and the rise of far-right parties in the EU.

I'm currently more worried that the EU isn't happy about the new Spanish government's growth forecasts for 2019.As if that wasn't bad enough, if Pedro Sanchéz can't get his budget plans approved by a couple of small Catalan nationalist parties by the weekend the PSOE (Spanish Socialist Party) will have to call a general election here before the end of the year.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Rightly or wrongly, does anyone believe Tusk’s comments were actually helpful?

Yes, given the proviso that he's an experienced operator and knew exactly what he was doing.He wanted to ruffle a few feathers in the British media before today's meeting with May.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I fear that Mrs May is in for an almighty Clash with the good burghers of Brussels today. It seems that this could be a case of London calling straight to hell though I'm sure she'd deny it's going to be that bad. Whatever happens, I really can't see her sashaying with Donald Tusk with a bit of Lover's Rock as she tries desperately to take complete control in these forlorn-looking negotiations. I'm not down though … this has been an incredible drama with lots of twists and turns and there are still plenty of career opportunities for her political death or glory yet!

Anyone would think that EU politics could be described by Clash song titles alone.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

No. Why facilitate a bad deal? No deal can be removed, no one needs to vote for something inadequate because of that threat.
Corbyn has written to May today and said explicitly what a deal would need to look like to get Labour backing - it looks nothing like her's, but the option has been given to her.

While I agree with your first premise.Technically speaking the PLP wouldn't be voting for May's deal,merely abstaining and thereby letting it pass by default and also removing the very real threat of a no deal Brexit at the end of March.

I think we both know that Mrs May won't be signing up to Labour's plan for a custom union any time soon, if ever.You'd need a general election for that and who knows what Labour's policy as regards Brexit will be next time around? Probably not the same as in 2017 since the circumstances have obviously changed since then.

We've heard a lot of talk of the national interest recently but not much sign of politicians from either of the two main parties willing to pay anything other than lip service to the idea.

 

[blues exile]

Cobblers. Market just means choice. The alternative to that is no choice. We’re heading back to the horseshoe theory and communism / fascism again which has been pointed out to you before, but as ever your tin ear means you just don’t listen.

The fact that you have to resort to personal abuse once again only underlines the poverty of your arguments. The free market means rampant uncontrolled capitalism which is only in the interests of a few, certainly not you or me. You might believe in that and the far from widely accepted horseshoe theory and various other right wing inventions to justify their hegemony, I don't.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Rightly or wrongly, does anyone believe Tusk’s comments were actually helpful?

I’m surprised by the traction it has got.

Firstly it clearly only applies to those without a plan. Why would Leavers therefore be insulted if they had a viable plan?

Secondly, it’s hardly out of place compared to the rhetoric coming from the UK on an almost daily basis. We’re constantly hearing comparisons to WWII - which would actually have been a living hell for Tusk’s parents - and the use of a war rhetoric (May going into battle etc) when we’re supposed to be reaching an agreement with them, not declaring war. Remainers get labelled saboteurs and traitors etc etc.

It seems a surprising time to insist on a new style of conciliatory politics when domestically the language used towards them is so hostile. We may not follow news in the EU but they read our newspapers etc.

Thirdly, I’m surprised how sensitive people are to criticism are on the Leave side. I thought Leavers couldn’t abide such snowflake behaviour of taking offence at the slightest thing?

Fourth, May is clearly setting up a scenario where she’s trying to blame the EU and make them seem unreasonable. Why the surprise when the EU defends itself by highlighting how underprepared the UK was and how this is self-inflicted? Pointing out that it is the UK not the EU that got the UK into this mess is hardly unreasonable and it is helpful when deciding what pundits to listen to when deciding what to do next: those who foresaw these issues or those caught out by them?

Finally, his comments on Corbyn have largely been ignored and there’s no outrage about his comments on the Leader of the Opposition’s (lack of) leadership on this issue.