Brexit negotiations thread

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47143135

Donald Tusk is quite right,of course.

 

[ESG]

Donald Tusk is spot on.......good man

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-47143135

Donald Tusk is quite right,of course.

And people wonder why over 17m voted to leave the EU....

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Having read the BBC article I feel more justified than ever voting leave. The part about them both laughing particularly sums it up for me.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Having read the BBC article I feel more justified than ever voting leave. The part about them both laughing particularly sums it up for me.

All it meant to me was they both have a pretty good idea of the way the British media works.They're both sophisticated bureaucrats.

In a way it mirrors Cameron's pre-referendum negotiations with the EU.He came back from Brussels convinced he'd won major concessions.The British media just rubished his deal.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

All it meant to me was they both have a pretty good idea of the way the British media works.They're both sophisticated bureaucrats.

And only one of them elected.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

And only one of them elected.

Directly elected you mean.I think you'll find Donald Tusk was elected to his position as President of the EU.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

So she's going to Northern Ireland to assure them that she can secure a Brexit deal that avoids a hard border with Eire. An expert today said she's wasting her time as the Irish won't fall for it because they know that the EU wants the hard border and the backstop to remain as it keeps us in the customs union, and that is their main goal, to keep us in the customs union for as long as possible, the Hotel California scenario. All she can give the Irish is empty promises.

It is the UK who wants the hard border. Don't you remember all those posters about taking control of our borders? They were from the Leave campaign, not the EU.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Directly elected you mean.I think you'll find Donald Tusk was elected to his position as President of the EU.

You know full well what I meant

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

And people wonder why over 17m voted to leave the EU....

The comments weren't aimed at the 17m+ they were aimed at the bungling incompetents who called for Brexit, without a clear sensible plan of how it could be achieved. I don't dispute the sincerity of those who genuinely wan't to leave. I ctriticise only those who lied to the population on how and on what terms we would be able to achieve our departure.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

The comments weren't aimed at the 17m+ they were aimed at the bungling incompetents who called for Brexit, without a clear sensible plan of how it could be achieved. I don't dispute the sincerity of those who genuinely wan't to leave. I ctriticise only those who lied to the population on how and on what terms we would be able to achieve our departure.

I know they were aimed at the politician's, but it does reinforce the view of what the EU thinks of the UK, which is one of the major reasons people voted for Brexit.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I know they were aimed at the politician's, but it does reinforce the view of what the EU thinks of the UK, which is one of the major reasons people voted for Brexit.

Is that not everyone's view of the UK right now? Offer something to the public without any plan of how to put it into practice. That is some extreme levels of incompetence right there and they are doing it in the name of the UK Government.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I know they were aimed at the politician's, but it does reinforce the view of what the EU thinks of the UK, which is one of the major reasons people voted for Brexit.

No, sorry..........it's a small point but a very important one. It's what the EU thinks of a small group of lying, bungling and incompetent politicians. It's not, in my opinion, what it thinks of the British people.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I know they were aimed at the politician's, but it does reinforce the view of what the EU thinks of the UK, which is one of the major reasons people voted for Brexit.

EU officials have worked amicably alongside UK officials, civil servants and politicians for decades. The Single Market was a construct of Lord Cockfield FFS. The UK has played a leading role in the EU and is hugely respected for its technical input in a number of areas.

What isn't respected is Nigel Farage who was on the European Parliament Fishing Committee but grandstanded instead of actually attending meetings and offering constructive input. However Tusk has worked alongside enough UK ministers and officials to know that we aren't all like Farage and the handful of ministers (Boris Johnson, Davis, Raab etc) who told bare-faced lies in the election and then ran away before they could be held accountable for the current cluster****.

This also highlights the contradictory nature of Brexit: if the EU holds the UK in such contempt why would be trying to keep the UK in the customs union for eternity as someone claimed on here earlier? Brexit is a series of contradictions that have never been ironed out which is why we are in the mess we currently are.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

This also highlights the contradictory nature of Brexit: if the EU holds the UK in such contempt why would be trying to keep the UK in the customs union for eternity as someone claimed on here earlier? Brexit is a series of contradictions that have never been ironed out which is why we are in the mess we currently are.

Just a thought on this point Yorkie - there are lots of views or thoughts around this, but I don't think you can credibly stitch those two things together and call it a contradiction.

At the EU level (Brussels) there is a very clear and firm view that if a country leaves it will demonstrate to others that that is a possibility and could lead to a house of cards type scenario. We can take a view about the probability of that, but it is a reasonable fear from their perspective. It is for that reason that article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty was designed in the way it was, specifically to make it technically as hard as they could to deliver (such as the refusal to talk seriously about a future relationship until a country has left - a political choice, not a practical necessity). It is also for this reason that ultimately Greece was kept in the Euro - as that project too would have crumbled at the peak of the Eurozone crisis if the markets had seriously believed that countries could leave or be kicked out. The weaker ones would have suffered capital flight and been pushed out one after the other (Greece first, then Ireland - at the time - then Italy, then Spain and Portugal). That was the much talked about 'contagion' that we heard so much about at the time.

The EU's strong commitment to the UK's staying is not a consequence of its love for or commitment to the UK, it is a consequence of its fear that we might actually be able to prove survival is possible and that would have far reaching consequences for the wider project.

 

[blues exile]

No, sorry..........it's a small point but a very important one. It's what the EU thinks of a small group of lying, bungling and incompetent politicians. It's not, in my opinion, what it thinks of the British people.

Tusk made it quite clear to whom his fully justified remarks were made, but as ever the British media will try to mislead those gullible enough to fall for their Europhobic spin.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

In addition to the above, Ireland has specific reasons for tying itself to the mast of this specifc framing of backstop (rather than any other type of backstop).

This particular backstop - as I have explained previously - firmly places all the cards in the EU's hand in the future relationship negotiations. We can't leave until they agree with the deal we offer them - hence they will make all sorts of requests which they know quite well contradict specific wishes of groups of leave voters in the UK, like fishing rights. We either give in on those things and anger those who voted to leave, or the EU doesn't agree the deal and part of the UK (Northern Ireland) remains tied to the single market and customs union beyond the transition period ending. This would gradually split NI away from GB as EU rules and regs diverge from those of the UK, while keeping them aligned with Ireland. Trebles all round for Sinn Fein. Who are the major political threat to the government in Ireland? Sinn Fein.

So, the EU like the backstop in its' current form as it keeps control over their objectives in their hands. Ireland like the backstop in its' current form as it advances the nationalist cause in Ireland.

Not massively difficult to understand why they are both so wedded to it now is it?

Of course, the task therefore is for us to demonstrate that an open border can be legally maintained without this backstop NI-EU tie in, at least long enough for the future relationship to be concluded.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

It is the UK who wants the hard border. Don't you remember all those posters about taking control of our borders? They were from the Leave campaign, not the EU.

I don't think they had the border separating Eire and Northern Ireland in mind regarding immigration. Don't forget that the EU wants a backstop that would mean Northern Ireland remains in the customs union and parts of the single market. So they're still playing hardball and cherry picking as much as the UK.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I know they were aimed at the politician's, but it does reinforce the view of what the EU thinks of the UK, which is one of the major reasons people voted for Brexit.

One of the two people concerned was,of course, the Irish pm.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

One of the two people concerned was,of course, the Irish pm.

Is Ireland not part of the EU then? Must have missed them leaving....