Brexit negotiations thread

[Bielzibubz]

Hope you aren't suggesting we do the same as the French.

I think his post is more about having another sly pop at the failings of this Tory Government than anything. He don't miss a trick that A S S

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Hope you aren't suggesting we do the same as the French.

Not suggesting anything, just noting different meanings of 'on the street'

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

This any good for you Mulder?

Neil Armstrong.....

Neil A written in reverse is Alien……….

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

the French are taking to the streets with molotovs, the Brits are taking to the streets with cardboard boxes and sleeping bags

The 'gilet jaune' situation is a complex one and really awkward to deal with. When I have the time I'll catch up with the thread I started before Christmas.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Hope you aren't suggesting we do the same as the French.

The French have a lot of history in that respect. The showing of 'Les Misérables' has unfortunately been well timed!

 

[Benfleet A1]

The French have a lot of history in that respect. The showing of 'Les Misérables' has unfortunately been well timed!

Rioting loses all credability.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Rioting loses all credability.

We all agree to defend the right of people to protest. The problems come when those prostests restrict the freedoms of others...........as I found to my personal cost in December and last weekend.

 

[rigsby]

Rioting loses all credability.

Works much better than a peaceful march.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I presume all interested parties will be viewing Brexit: The Uncivil War, on Channel 4 at 9pm this evening?

Fans of the brash politics of Farage / Banks / Johnson will probably not be enamoured with the (accurate IMO) portrayal of those 3 but Leave voters generally would enjoy watching that I think. It gives an insight into where Leave went right and into where Remain went wrong so a recommended watch for both sides.

Cameron featured very little but there was a bit of a truth bomb which was aimed at him (and others) which is something I personally hold against him - that you can't consistently talk something down and then ask people to vote for it - people have longer memories than that.

Another valuable lesson which the whole notion of austerity has failed to learn - threats of what you will lose don't work on people who feel they have nothing to lose. Those who sideline the effects of austerity whilst calling for a 'People's Vote' need to pay attention to that. LibDems and the likes of Anna Soubry still don't seem to have twigged that.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Fans of the brash politics of Farage / Banks / Johnson will probably not be enamoured with the (accurate IMO) portrayal of those 3 but Leave voters generally would enjoy watching that I think. It gives an insight into where Leave went right and into where Remain went wrong so a recommended watch for both sides.

Cameron featured very little but there was a bit of a truth bomb which was aimed at him (and others) which is something I personally hold against him - that you can't consistently talk something down and then ask people to vote for it - people have longer memories than that.

Another valuable lesson which the whole notion of austerity has failed to learn - threats of what you will lose don't work on people who feel they have nothing to lose. Those who sideline the effects of austerity whilst calling for a 'People's Vote' need to pay attention to that. LibDems and the likes of Anna Soubry still don't seem to have twigged that.

I found it quite worrying and whilst I was was left better understanding how it was done, I know less about why it was done. The last quarter of an hour linked up the background scenes of manipulation and exploitation, shadowy figures like Robert Mercer and the election of Trump. It was a contest between the 'old school' remain campaign and the 'brave new world' of social media targetting and agitating, employed by leave. Of course, once the genii is out of the lamp political foes will wish to employ similar techniques.
Without regulation (is it possible to employ controls on social media, when we see it is so difficult concerning other issues?) is democracy in danger of becoming a game controlled by rich shadowy background figures with an agenda, whilst the electorate is being used as puppets in their experimentation?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I found it quite worrying and whilst I was was left better understanding how it was done, I know less about why it was done. The last quarter of an hour linked up the background scenes of manipulation and exploitation, shadowy figures like Robert Mercer and the election of Trump. It was a contest between the 'old school' remain campaign and the 'brave new world' of social media targetting and agitating, employed by leave. Of course, once the genii is out of the lamp political foes will wish to employ similar techniques.
Without regulation (is it possible to employ controls on social media, when we see it is so difficult concerning other issues?) is democracy in danger of becoming a game controlled by rich shadowy background figures with an agenda, whilst the electorate is being used as puppets in their experimentation?

You might want to have a look at Tim Shipman's (The political editor of the Sunday Times) two excellent books,"All Out War:The Full Story of How Brexit Sank Britain's Political Class" and "Fall OUT: A Year of Political Mayhem". I think the why was,IMO, because it could be done.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I found it quite worrying and whilst I was was left better understanding how it was done, I know less about why it was done. The last quarter of an hour linked up the background scenes of manipulation and exploitation, shadowy figures like Robert Mercer and the election of Trump. It was a contest between the 'old school' remain campaign and the 'brave new world' of social media targetting and agitating, employed by leave. Of course, once the genii is out of the lamp political foes will wish to employ similar techniques.
Without regulation (is it possible to employ controls on social media, when we see it is so difficult concerning other issues?) is democracy in danger of becoming a game controlled by rich shadowy background figures with an agenda, whilst the electorate is being used as puppets in their experimentation?

I'd suggest it always has been.
Biggest change recently I think has been the government overriding Parliament - shrugging of being found in contempt, shrugging off losing votes, buying the support of 10 MPs from a marginal party, cancelling votes after days of debate. That is the big change.

Feeding voters misinformation has always happened, the methods are just more sophisticated. We still get one vote each and have to battle against the information falsehoods to make the vote worthwhile.

 

[rigsby]

I dare say remain voters were easily influenced, you can tell by their posts on here.

I don't know anyone who voted out because of mainstream or alternative media. Whether it was red buses or KGB agents made no difference. We had all made our minds up years ago because we have seen it, felt it and lived with it and we don't want the same for our children

The very fact that the likes of Eddy Izzard in his jaunty little pink berry thought he could make a difference by continually saying "We are better off together"......Just made us laugh all the way to the voting booth.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I dare say remain voters were easily influenced, you can tell by their posts on here.

I don't know anyone who voted out because of mainstream or alternative media. Whether it was red buses or KGB agents made no difference. We had all made our minds up years ago because we have seen it, felt it and lived with it and we don't want the same for our children

The very fact that the likes of Eddy Izzard in his jaunty little pink berry thought he could make a difference by continually saying "We are better off together"......Just made us laugh all the way to the voting booth.

LOL

 

[Bielzibubz]

I found it quite worrying and whilst I was was left better understanding how it was done, I know less about why it was done. The last quarter of an hour linked up the background scenes of manipulation and exploitation, shadowy figures like Robert Mercer and the election of Trump. It was a contest between the 'old school' remain campaign and the 'brave new world' of social media targetting and agitating, employed by leave. Of course, once the genii is out of the lamp political foes will wish to employ similar techniques.
Without regulation (is it possible to employ controls on social media, when we see it is so difficult concerning other issues?) is democracy in danger of becoming a game controlled by rich shadowy background figures with an agenda, whilst the electorate is being used as puppets in their experimentation?

It's been that way since Rockerfeller and as has already been said, it's just got far more underhand, shadowy and sophisticated with whole countries and their economies now at the beck and call of the financial and powerful elite.

We have no true say in how our lives are governed. Don't be fooled. Yes we have a vote and we get to exorcise that vote and put a cross in a little box next to the name of the person/party that's lied to us the least and promised us the most but in reality it all amounts to naff all as every politician that comes even remotely close to the upper echelons of state/political power will eventually tow the party line, a line that is ultimately drawn by the very same rich and powerful individuals and corporate conglomerates I eluded to in my first paragraph.

Will I still vote believing what I do? Hell yeah. Regardless of how small a pawn I am in this great game that I abhor I shall still continue to do what I think is right and most prosperous for me, my kin and my loved ones and if that means being a bit of a hypocrite and a small part of the bigger problem then so be it. I can live with that.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46789601

Meanwhile, in the real world, prominent remainers like Anna Soubry get called a Nazi because of her opinions by the rent a mob crowd on College Green these days.The level of political discourse since the advent of social media has hit an all time low.

 

[blues exile]

It's been that way since Rockerfeller and as has already been said, it's just got far more underhand, shadowy and sophisticated with whole countries and their economies now at the beck and call of the financial and powerful elite.

We have no true say in how our lives are governed. Don't be fooled. Yes we have a vote and we get to exorcise that vote and put a cross in a little box next to the name of the person/party that's lied to us the least and promised us the most but in reality it all amounts to naff all as every politician that comes even remotely close to the upper echelons of state/political power will eventually tow the party line, a line that is ultimately drawn by the very same rich and powerful individuals and corporate conglomerates I eluded to in my first paragraph.

Will I still vote believing what I do? Hell yeah. Regardless of how small a pawn I am in this great game that I abhor I shall still continue to do what I think is right and most prosperous for me, my kin and my loved ones and if that means being a bit of a hypocrite and a small part of the bigger problem then so be it. I can live with that.

Of course, you have very eloquently outlined the reason why Corbyn and McDonnell are perceived as such a threat to the establishment and why the Labour Party is very likely to gain power at the next GE whenever that is, despite the frenzied attempts by the MSM to blacken their names with fictitious slurs and allegations and of course their mindless useful idiots, the unquestioning working class Tories.

 

[rigsby]

Of course, you have very eloquently outlined the reason why Corbyn and McDonnell are perceived as such a threat to the establishment and why the Labour Party is very likely to gain power at the next GE whenever that is, despite the frenzied attempts by the MSM to blacken their names with fictitious slurs and allegations and of course their mindless useful idiots, the unquestioning working class Tories.

Looks like the MSM campaign against JC has worked very well. He was once a staunch believer in Brexit and now he wants to remain.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Looks like the MSM campaign against JC has worked very well. He was once a staunch believer in Brexit and now he wants to remain.

Exactly the point.

 

[Ricky Otto]

It's been that way since Rockerfeller and as has already been said, it's just got far more underhand, shadowy and sophisticated with whole countries and their economies now at the beck and call of the financial and powerful elite.

We have no true say in how our lives are governed. Don't be fooled. Yes we have a vote and we get to exorcise that vote and put a cross in a little box next to the name of the person/party that's lied to us the least and promised us the most but in reality it all amounts to naff all as every politician that comes even remotely close to the upper echelons of state/political power will eventually tow the party line, a line that is ultimately drawn by the very same rich and powerful individuals and corporate conglomerates I eluded to in my first paragraph.

Will I still vote believing what I do? Hell yeah. Regardless of how small a pawn I am in this great game that I abhor I shall still continue to do what I think is right and most prosperous for me, my kin and my loved ones and if that means being a bit of a hypocrite and a small part of the bigger problem then so be it. I can live with that.

If you credit these "Financial and powerful elite" with such power, which I am not disputing, then why do you think that hurting them will lead to you being more prosperous? Surely those money people with the power and influence will protect themselves and tighten wages and spending etc and they can do it saying "we told you this would happen if you left the EU". I mean leaving the EU means we are no longer subject to the workers rights and benefits of EU countries and it is feasible that people like us down the chain could suffer for it.

I don't actually disagree with your opinion on big business but short of revolution I don't think we will change it and I truly believe revolution would be catastrophic. I would be interested to know just how far you would go for your beliefs and whether you truly believe that exiting the EU will have any meaningful effect on the financial elites control of the world?