Brexit negotiations thread

[Bielzibubz]

1.The current system of immigration (ie free movement of labour) works well enough for most of the other 27 EU countries (certainly the one I live in, Spain and the one I visit regularly, France).

2. Like most Brexiteers, you seem to forget that immigration will,of course,continue after Brexit.Indeed as the figures released last week showed,immigration from other EU countries has declined whereas immigration from non-EU countries has increased. It's really simplistic to suggest that the former is unskilled labour, whereas the latter is skilled.In any case, this debate will continue after Brexit, when the Tories current target of reducing immigration to the "tens of thousands" will continue to be unrealised.

3.Ever heard of the European arrest warrant? On the whole this would seem to work reasonably well.Granted there may be some occasional problems with it.

FYI,It's been rather a long time since I was a member of the CPGB (in the UK) or even a communist trade union (in Spain).

Most, you said it yourself. Not all. it certainly hasn't worked for the UK in certain respects. And France? Are you serious. Have you not seen the problems unfettered mass migration has caused there. Oh wait, silly me. You have. You just choose to ignore it. Much like you do many other things that don't fit into your myopic and idealistic political views.

France is on the cusp of national turmoil due to the rise of the far right. Much of which can be attributed on the unhindered migration and failed social integration of peoples from all nations, especially sub Saharan Africa.

I get it. I really do. I get why your all butt hurt at the rise of your political anathema throughout Europe but seriously, just try and take a step back and see why. What we're seeing now is a culmination of over 40 years political ineptitude and shortsightedness in believing that cultures and peoples can happily co-exist and integrate on a mass scale. The writing has been on the wall for a generation now only a very few could see it and when they did dare to voice a concern they were forever labelled as racist and bigoted.

 

[blues exile]

Most, you said it yourself. Not all. it certainly hasn't worked for the UK in certain respects. And France? Are you serious. Have you not seen the problems unfettered mass migration has caused there. Oh wait, silly me. You have. You just choose to ignore it. Much like you do many other things that don't fit into your myopic and idealistic political views.

France is on the cusp of national turmoil due to the rise of the far right. Much of which can be attributed on the unhindered migration and failed social integration of peoples from all nations, especially sub Saharan Africa.

I get it. I really do. I get why your all butt hurt at the rise of your political anathema throughout Europe but seriously, just try and take a step back and see why. What we're seeing now is a culmination of over 40 years political ineptitude and shortsightedness in believing that cultures and peoples can happily co-exist and integrate on a mass scale. The writing has been on the wall for a generation now only a very few could see it and when they did dare to voice a concern they were forever labelled as racist and bigoted.

That's very simply because they are.

 

[Member]

I posted this a while ago but no one took it up, so repeating it.

Why would a second referendum that includes an option to remain be undemocratic, as many try to argue?

 

[Ricky Otto]

I posted this a while ago but no one took it up, so repeating it.

Why would a second referendum that includes an option to remain be undemocratic, as many try to argue?

It wouldn't be, that is the answer. To go through with a brexit very different to what a lot of people voted for would be undemocratic though.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Most, you said it yourself. Not all. it certainly hasn't worked for the UK in certain respects. And France? Are you serious. Have you not seen the problems unfettered mass migration has caused there. Oh wait, silly me. You have. You just choose to ignore it. Much like you do many other things that don't fit into your myopic and idealistic political views.

France is on the cusp of national turmoil due to the rise of the far right. Much of which can be attributed on the unhindered migration and failed social integration of peoples from all nations, especially sub Saharan Africa.

I get it. I really do. I get why your all butt hurt at the rise of your political anathema throughout Europe but seriously, just try and take a step back and see why. What we're seeing now is a culmination of over 40 years political ineptitude and shortsightedness in believing that cultures and peoples can happily co-exist and integrate on a mass scale. The writing has been on the wall for a generation now only a very few could see it and when they did dare to voice a concern they were forever labelled as racist and bigoted.

The present unrest in France,which I expect to see a little of from Wednesday cannot, in any way, be attributed directly to immigration. Ostensibly,at least,they're the result of petrol price increases.Granted the disappointment of the far-right at their defeat of the FN in the recent presidential elections there.

I quite regularly visit the centre of Beziers in the Midi.Granted there is a quartier there which is rather marginal,with a high immigrant population.I can honestly say that I have have personally never witnessed any unrest there.That is also true of La Paillade,an immigrant area in Montpellier,where MH play and which I've visited many times to see football matches.

France's moncultural model of immigration is different from the Uk's multiculural one.That's about all anyone can truthfully say. You would appear to want both models to fail.

 

[Napster]

It wouldn't be, that is the answer. To go through with a brexit very different to what a lot of people voted for would be undemocratic though.

but there were no options for what type of brexit were there?

 

[Ricky Otto]

but there were no options for what type of brexit were there?

Exactly, people made their minds up on what leave campaigners told them the deal would be, turns out the deal is nothing like what they said. Democracy would be going back to the people.

 

[MK Shrimper]

New poll required?

 

[rigsby]

I think it should be the best of 7 over a 2 year period.

Otherwise its deal or no deal......we have already voted to leave so that decision wouldn't be an option.

 

[Bielzibubz]

The present unrest in France,which I expect to see a little of from Wednesday cannot, in any way, be attributed directly to immigration. Ostensibly,at least,they're the result of petrol price increases.Granted the disappointment of the far-right at their defeat of the FN in the recent presidential elections there.

I quite regularly visit the centre of Beziers in the Midi.Granted there is a quartier there which is rather marginal,with a high immigrant population.I can honestly say that I have have personally never witnessed any unrest there.That is also true of La Paillade,an immigrant area in Montpellier,where MH play and which I've visited many times to see football matches.

France's moncultural model of immigration is different from the Uk's multiculural one.That's about all anyone can truthfully say. You would appear to want both models to fail.

Where did I mention the unrest? I didn't. I specifically said the rise of the far right political movement.

And once again. Regularly visiting a country is not the same as living in it day in day out. You cannot begin to understand what it's like living in France or begin to understand the cultural challenges the country faces just because you holiday there or do a bit of shopping with the missus and daughter. The same goes for your supposed understanding of multicultural UK.

Incidentally, I regularly visit various places in Portugal and Turkey but I'm not so arrogant to presume for one moment to know what it's actually like to live there and understand the reasoning behind their social ups and downs.

 

[rigsby]

Where did I mention the unrest? I didn't. I specifically said the rise of the far right political movement.

And once again. Regularly visiting a country is not the same as living in it day in day out. You cannot begin to understand what it's like living in France or begin to understand the cultural challenges the country faces just because you holiday there or do a bit of shopping with the missus and daughter. The same goes for your supposed understanding of multicultural UK.

Incidentally, I regularly visit various places in Portugal and Turkey but I'm not so arrogant to presume for one moment to know what it's actually like to live there and understand the reasoning behind their social ups and downs.

If only you had studied in Birmingham in the early 70's. You would have a real understanding of other countries social problems

 

[blues exile]

Where did I mention the unrest? I didn't. I specifically said the rise of the far right political movement.

And once again. Regularly visiting a country is not the same as living in it day in day out. You cannot begin to understand what it's like living in France or begin to understand the cultural challenges the country faces just because you holiday there or do a bit of shopping with the missus and daughter. The same goes for your supposed understanding of multicultural UK.

Incidentally, I regularly visit various places in Portugal and Turkey but I'm not so arrogant to presume for one moment to know what it's actually like to live there and understand the reasoning behind their social ups and downs.

So 'France is on the cusp of national turmoil' is different from 'unrest'?

 

[rigsby]

The present unrest in France,which I expect to see a little of from Wednesday cannot, in any way, be attributed directly to immigration. Ostensibly,at least,they're the result of petrol price increases.Granted the disappointment of the far-right at their defeat of the FN in the recent presidential elections there.

I quite regularly visit the centre of Beziers in the Midi.Granted there is a quartier there which is rather marginal,with a high immigrant population.I can honestly say that I have have personally never witnessed any unrest there.That is also true of La Paillade,an immigrant area in Montpellier,where MH play and which I've visited many times to see football matches.

France's moncultural model of immigration is different from the Uk's multiculural one.That's about all anyone can truthfully say. You would appear to want both models to fail.

Even Diane Abbott and Baroness Chakrabarti think the British model has failed. Which is why they want less diversity for their own children.

 

[Ricky Otto]

I think it should be the best of 7 over a 2 year period.

Otherwise its deal or no deal......we have already voted to leave so that decision wouldn't be an option.

So you buy a car because the dealer tells you he can get it for a cheap price and it has everything you want, you turn up to the dealership a few weeks later to pick it up and the salesman says it cost more than he thought and it's in a different colour. You do have another option though. He has another car there as well, which again isn't what you were after. You can't just say no and keep your old car though because you and your family said before you wanted a new car. It's madness and wouldn't be allowed to happen.

Maybe you go back to your family and decide that despite the new car not being what you expected you still want one of the options they gave you? Maybe you won't? that's basically what a peoples vote is, it's the only democratic way forward IMO.

 

[rigsby]

So you buy a car because the dealer tells you he can get it for a cheap price and it has everything you want, you turn up to the dealership a few weeks later to pick it up and the salesman says it cost more than he thought and it's in a different colour. You do have another option though. He has another car there as well, which again isn't what you were after. You can't just say no and keep your old car though because you and your family said before you wanted a new car. It's madness and wouldn't be allowed to happen.

Maybe you go back to your family and decide that despite the new car not being what you expected you still want one of the options they gave you? Maybe you won't? that's basically what a peoples vote is, it's the only democratic way forward IMO.

Not sure buying a car and leaving the EU are in some way similar, its far more committed than that.

If you don't like the car and the deal has been changed you simply walk away and go else where.. What you don't do is go home to the family and say "Sorry we cant have a new car because daddy is to weak to get a deal".....Why don't we have a vote on it and hopefully my failure will go away. Then we can carry on driving the unreliable and expensive one I bought 40 years ago, until it completely breaks down.

 

[Ricky Otto]

Not sure buying a car and leaving the EU are in some way similar, its far more committed than that.

If you don't like the car and the deal has been changed you simply walk away and go else where.. What you don't do is go home to the family and say "Sorry we cant have a new car because daddy is to weak to get a deal".....Why don't we have a vote on it and hopefully my failure will go away

They obviously aren't similar, but the point is the same and its a simplification. If somebody offers you a deal and you decide to take that deal, then when it comes to concluding the deal you are told to choose between 2 deals that were not what you agreed to you would have the option to say "no I don't want those deals, I'll walk away"

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Where did I mention the unrest? I didn't. I specifically said the rise of the far right political movement.

And once again. Regularly visiting a country is not the same as living in it day in day out. You cannot begin to understand what it's like living in France or begin to understand the cultural challenges the country faces just because you holiday there or do a bit of shopping with the missus and daughter. The same goes for your supposed understanding of multicultural UK.

Incidentally, I regularly visit various places in Portugal and Turkey but I'm not so arrogant to presume for one moment to know what it's actually like to live there and understand the reasoning behind their social ups and downs.

According to reports in the media there were both far right and left extremists arrested on the streets of Paris last weekend.

Also,according to my wife who was in France last weekend (I wasn't) there were various roundabouts outside Beziers (she jointly owns a small country cottage there in Cebazan, with her brother) manned by protesters of both left and right.

I visit France on a fairly regular basis ie about once a month or so and (as I said) will be there again from Wednesday until the weekend .That has nothing to do with your occasional visits to countries like Portugal and Turkey.

I lived and worked in the UK until my late 20's and regularly go back to visit friends and relatives there.Was in Southend last back in October.

 

[rigsby]

According to reports in the media there were both far right and left extremists arrested on the streets of Paris last weekend.

Also,according to my wife who was in France last weekend (I wasn't) there were various roundabouts outside Beziers (she jointly owns a small country cottage there in Cebazan, with her brother) manned by protesters of both left and right.

I visit France on a fairly regular basis ie about once a month or so and (as I said) will be there again from Wednesday until the weekend .That has nothing to do with your occasional visits to countries like Portugal and Turkey.

I lived and worked in the UK until my late 20's and regularly go back to visit friends and relatives there.Was in Southend last back in October.

Try looking up from the Guardian whilst you visit these countries, you might learn something.

 

[rigsby]

They obviously aren't similar, but the point is the same and its a simplification. If somebody offers you a deal and you decide to take that deal, then when it comes to concluding the deal you are told to choose between 2 deals that were not what you agreed to you would have the option to say "no I don't want those deals, I'll walk away"

We never voted for a deal nor were we offered one. We voted to bin the old car that's all. We now have £3 trillion to spend over the next 10 years...….If anyone gets a bit snotty in the BMW or Peugeot show room we will go else where thank you very much.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Tory MP Michael Fabricant:

Even the top civil servant, Olly Robbins, now claims he told the #PM this #Brexit deal is a bad one! How can I vote for this?






CityAM journalist Owen Bennett:

Geoffrey Cox going absolutely ballistic at Labour for demanding the full legal advice. Tells them to “grow up”. Trouble is, the demand came from Jacob Rees-Mogg.





Labour, LibDems, SNP, Plaid, Greens and...........The DUP have co-authored a letter asking the Speaker of the House of Commons to hold Theresa May’s Government in Contempt of Parliament.