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Brexit negotiations thread

Whatever else history may or may not say about these terrible, tremendous years, we can be sure that Neville Chamberlain acted with perfect sincerity according to his lights and strove to the utmost of his capacity and authority, which were powerful, to save the world from the awful, devastating struggle in which we are now engaged. This alone will stand him in good stead as far as what is called the verdict of history is concerned.

Not my words, but Churchill's.

I think Chamberlain is harshly judged.

Churchill was clearly being magmanimous after having won the argument by replacing Chamberlain as PM. I doubt very much if history's judgement on Chamberlain will alter that much in the forseeable future.
 
Churchill was clearly being magmanimous after having won the argument by replacing Chamberlain as PM. I doubt very much if history's judgement on Chamberlain will alter that much in the forseeable future.

oh great historian, please do tell us, what you would have done differently as PM, bearing in mind Chamberlain didn't want the job, was clearly too old for the role, and wanted peace rather than war.
 
Churchill was clearly being magmanimous after having won the argument by replacing Chamberlain as PM. I doubt very much if history's judgement on Chamberlain will alter that much in the forseeable future.

also Churchill regularly defended Chamberlain's position, most notably in the Norway debate.
 
Tony Benn,great speaker (and man) that he was, was never capable of changing his mind (except finally to embrace full blown socialism after serving in Wilson's and Callaghan's centre-left governments). As Keynes so memorably said:-" When the facts change,I change my mind.What do you do ,sir?"

Over 40 years we went from a trading block called the Common Market to the monster that is the EU. That's why the majority of the voting British public thought of those wise words of Keynes and changed their minds

What do you do Tangled?
 
That will swing my voting intentions but they need to really get behind this, no half measures.
That's my thinking too but it is rumoured that the speech was different to the one rehearsed and, despite long standing ovation it received, it is not JC's stance. Hopefully the reaction it got will sway him
 
That's my thinking too but it is rumoured that the speech was different to the one rehearsed and, despite long standing ovation it received, it is not JC's stance. Hopefully the reaction it got will sway him


Yeah, that's the problem. Corbyn has always been a staunch critic of the EU and dispite him alledgedly voting remain I wonder if he can really bring himself to endorse another vote with a Remain option. Time will tell I suppose but we are rapidly running out of that.
 
I’m not so sure Labour’s plans are all very well. On Brexit for example they are no more in agreement with each other and their voters than the Conservatives are. The idea that the Labour shadow cabinet could negotiate an ‘all things to all people’ outcome is frankly laughable.
 
Nothing really new here, it all depends what Labour would end up offering as a choice in any second referendum. Personally, I'm coming to the opinion, in spite of the ambiguity created by McCluskey and McDonnell (and the real wishes of Corbyn), it is difficult to see the party going against the mass wishes of members and not offering a remain choice. With the liklihood of a bad deal or no deal being presented and failing in parliament, my thoughts would be that May is more likely to change her mind on a second referendum, than call a General Election..............but in the present climate, I wouldn't put my house on it! :Smile:
Labour do have real problems with Europe. Any change of heart could of course badly reflect on their bedrock Brexit supporters, such is the reason they prefer sitting on the fence. However, at the core of the party (Corbyn especially) there is a dilemma. On the one side they view the EU badly, as a supporter of the maligned liberal economics and big business. Yet on the other hand there is the fear, outside the EU, of losing many of the hard gained and EU promoted, rights for workers.
I just had a wicked thought. I don't believe May would survive a rejection in parliament of her EU plans and it's not beyond belief that we could see an ironic reversal of 2016, when a leave vote saw the departure of Cameron and the replacement by a convert to Brexit. A change to remain in a second referendum could see a remainer, converted (for personal ambition?) to Brexit, then having to convert back to remain to take up the reigns of power. The one thing surely we can all agree on..........and that is, Boris would perform any number of somersaults in order to become Prime Minister! :Smile:
 
also Churchill regularly defended Chamberlain's position, most notably in the Norway debate.

I don't think there's any question that Chamberlain was acting honourably.He just turned out to be on the wrong side of history.Antony Eden would be a more recent example too.
 
Over 40 years we went from a trading block called the Common Market to the monster that is the EU. That's why the majority of the voting British public thought of those wise words of Keynes and changed their minds

What do you do Tangled?

I've made it quite clear before now that I voted no (to remaining in the EEC) in 1975 and have changed my mind since according to my own personal experience of living and working abroad in the EU.The facts (or at least my circumstances) have changed, so therefore I changed my mind accordingly.:Winking:
 
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Nothing really new here, it all depends what Labour would end up offering as a choice in any second referendum. Personally, I'm coming to the opinion, in spite of the ambiguity created by McCluskey and McDonnell (and the real wishes of Corbyn), it is difficult to see the party going against the mass wishes of members and not offering a remain choice. With the liklihood of a bad deal or no deal being presented and failing in parliament, my thoughts would be that May is more likely to change her mind on a second referendum, than call a General Election..............but in the present climate, I wouldn't put my house on it! :Smile:
Labour do have real problems with Europe. Any change of heart could of course badly reflect on their bedrock Brexit supporters, such is the reason they prefer sitting on the fence. However, at the core of the party (Corbyn especially) there is a dilemma. On the one side they view the EU badly, as a supporter of the maligned liberal economics and big business. Yet on the other hand there is the fear, outside the EU, of losing many of the hard gained and EU promoted, rights for workers.
I just had a wicked thought. I don't believe May would survive a rejection in parliament of her EU plans and it's not beyond belief that we could see an ironic reversal of 2016, when a leave vote saw the departure of Cameron and the replacement by a convert to Brexit. A change to remain in a second referendum could see a remainer, converted (for personal ambition?) to Brexit, then having to convert back to remain to take up the reigns of power. The one thing surely we can all agree on..........and that is, Boris would perform any number of somersaults in order to become Prime Minister! :Smile:

It's worth pointing out that any second referendum on Europe is not in Labour's gift to provide.So the chances of it actually happening (with/without a remain option) are fairly remote.
 

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