Brexit negotiations thread

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Would that be the same polls who predicted a comfortable win for remain back in 2016.

The EU is behaving exactly how I thought it would. Europe's failed politicians wont give up that little number without a fight. Even ex MEP's are not allowed to speak out against it because under their rules they can stop a pension. Britain has to fail or the whole thing collapses. So the very last thing they are going to do is look after us. No I don't fear a no deal Brexit and nor do believe the nonsense pedalled about it. Just wait and see how quick the German car manufacturers push through a deal and just like the emergency budget, the fear will be scrubbed from history

As for what I expected, we have had a much better start than most (in or out) would have predicted....Including you if your honest.,,,,, Unemployment at a 43 year low including youth down by a third. Business investment up year on year and wages growing at their fasted rate for a few years.

Meanwhile the EU want to set up a life boat service of some 10,000 staff. That will become a glorified free ferry service for illegal immigrants, Your future is the rise of the extreme right and some European countries in crisis. So a word of advice to a fellow shrimper....The smart people got out of Germany while they could in the 1930's,,,,,History always repeats itself.

That's your view and you are perfectally entitled to it. However please don't have the audacity to claim you speak for the 17.4 million who voted leave. Many, I would imagine, found it a difficult and tortuous decision and whereas they may finally have come down on the leave side, it's unlkely they desired such an act of self harm as leaving the EU without a deal. After all weren't we promised a deal similar to the one we presently have??? Those happy to countenance a no deal are a small minority of Conservative MP's..............a rather larger number of Conservative Party members and a number of other vested interests who are eyeing up the prospects of a big financial killing on the back of the UK economy and sterling.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I’d just like to point out, for the sake of balance, that if Riggers can’t ‘speak for’ the 17.4 million who voted leave, neither can MK or others who are claiming most who voted leave did so because of the leave campaign or the alleged ‘lies’ it told in your view. By the way, World war three and economic Armageddon, as threatened by remain, were far more blatant porkies it seems to me.

None of us have that breadth of insight to know the individual minds of millions and claiming to do so is equally wrong both ways.

 

[dcblue]

He was talking about UKIP voters.I wasn't.

That's ok then. He only insulted 4million voters, where as you have managed to encompass over 17 miliion.

 

[dcblue]

Most of whom were conned.

I often wonder why brexiteers were conned but not the remainers by the campaigns waged by both sides.
In my view the brexiteers are willing to embrace change for a better future for this country even if it means hardship for a while. Meanwhile remainers are happy to continue to believe the lies that our politicians have been telling us since we joined the EEC.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Listen DC and all you other Brexiters, it's like hitting your head against a wall in this thread and you're be thrilled that I'm done with it.

In my eyes, and that of millions of others, there is no brighter future. I foresee huge financial upheaval, many millions will lose their jobs/houses/pensions - the vaguely ironic thing is that will be the majority of Leave voters who have been promised a better day by (probably) Russian controlled billionaires who will make even more money on the pain of the population of the UK.

Any deal however "light" will substantianly worse that what we have now.

If I could leave this country and make my home in a united Europe then me & my family would be on the first plane out of here and leave your Brexiters to your blinkerered jingoisms.

 

[dcblue]

Listen DC and all you other Brexiters, it's like hitting your head against a wall in this thread and you're be thrilled that I'm done with it.

In my eyes, and that of millions of others, there is no brighter future. I foresee huge financial upheaval, many millions will lose their jobs/houses/pensions - the vaguely ironic thing is that will be the majority of Leave voters who have been promised a better day by (probably) Russian controlled billionaires who will make even more money on the pain of the population of the UK.

Any deal however "light" will substantianly worse that what we have now.

If I could leave this country and make my home in a united Europe then me & my family would be on the first plane out of here and leave your Brexiters to your blinkerered jingoisms.

You have obviously believed our politicians, which just validates my views. There will be no brighter future for this country, or the whole of Europe, if we continue to be ruled by an unelected commission in Brussels.
Could you please answer one last question before you go. Why can Europe not be united without being a political union of federal states.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You have obviously believed our politicians, which just validates my views. There will be no brighter future for this country, or the whole of Europe, if we continue to be ruled by an unelected commission in Brussels.
Could you please answer one last question before you go. Why can Europe not be united without being a political union of federal states.

The answer to your question is of course it can,as it is now.However it makes sense,once you've achieved monetary union ,as the EU has with the Euro to target political union as an eventual goal.Indeed, many would argue that a federal ,political union should have been achieved before monetary union.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That's ok then. He only insulted 4million voters, where as you have managed to encompass over 17 miliion.

No.I haven't insulted anyone.Merely raised my concern over the large number of white working class voters (the class which I come from) who willl have very limited prospects, if Brexit doesn't workout in their favour in the short and medium term.Remember as Keynes said "in the long term we're all dead."

BTW,can you point to a single shred of evidence which indicates that Brexit will work out finr for the peope I'm interested in? No I thought not.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You left for a country based on Fascism. As did Lord Haw Haw and we all know what happened to him.

Quite clearly you know very little about modern day Spain (or I imagine the Midi in France,where I'm writing this from now).FYI,as I've said before, Franco died in 1975.I started working in Spain in 1978.I remember well the massive street demonstrations in favour of the new Spanish constitution which took place 40 years ago now, The idea that the modern Spanish state is somehow "based on Fascism" betrays an ignorance of history which is quite breathtaking.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I often wonder why brexiteers were conned but not the remainers by the campaigns waged by both sides.
In my view the brexiteers are willing to embrace change for a better future for this country even if it means hardship for a while. Meanwhile remainers are happy to continue to believe the lies that our politicians have been telling us since we joined the EEC.

That 'while', according to one of your spiritual leaders, could be up to 50 years away! Of course, it's a big gamble that it will work at all............one that you and your followers are obvioulsy prepared to take in order to free the UK from the evil EU empire.
One of the problems with this is that YES, crashing out of the EU would 'free' the UK (with all the likely inconveniences that would follow). However, you can't be as naive to believe that, negotiating future trade deals (with the likes of the USA) will not be achieved without loss of some of that new found freedom. You can't be free and totally independent in this present complex world. You will lose the constraints of the EU only to find other countries imposing their conditions on you.
It also bears thinking about what kind of country the UK will become, in order to survive outside the protection of the EU. What exactly do Brexiters expect when they have finally 'got their country back?' What do you envisage happening, for example, to the NHS, wages, food standards and working conditions??? I'm sure there are people who have big plans (and profits) prepared for the future, although I have a sneaking feeling they are not ones you will appreciate. I happily won't be around to see it (neither will the older population who voted in large numbers for Brexit).

 

[Benfleet A1]

If these wonderful benefits do take as much as 50 years to come about then I'll be pushing up daisies and my kids will be in their 50's and 60's. A bloody long time to wait for eutopia.

 

[dcblue]

As I have previously said the reason why brexit seems so daunting is that the political class of here and Europe, with a few exceptions, are fully indoctrinated into the EU project. Subsequently they are trying to thwart it by scaring the population.
The constraints placed on EU members are, I believe, more far reaching than just trade and economy and consequently trade deals with other countries will be much less intrusive.
I may be naive but I seem to remember that we had an NHS, food standards and working conditions that the world envied. Also wages don't seen to have improved much in comparison to costs since we became part of the EU. Consequently I don't think there is anything to fear as far as those are concerned.
The protection of the EU seems to have worked out well for Greece and Italy. Is this an example of monetary union? Also for the young where unemployment is high in many countries. There is also the EU defence organization which does not involve them in having an army.
I don't think anyone has suggested we would be heading for Utopia but I believe it will be a much better place than where we are now heading.
I am one of these old brexiteers who dared to voice an opinion at the ballot box in the hope that future generations would benefit from a better society than the one I envisage under the protection of the EU.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

As I have previously said the reason why brexit seems so daunting is that the political class of here and Europe, with a few exceptions, are fully indoctrinated into the EU project. Subsequently they are trying to thwart it by scaring the population.
The constraints placed on EU members are, I believe, more far reaching than just trade and economy and consequently trade deals with other countries will be much less intrusive.
I may be naive but I seem to remember that we had an NHS, food standards and working conditions that the world envied. Also wages don't seen to have improved much in comparison to costs since we became part of the EU. Consequently I don't think there is anything to fear as far as those are concerned.
The protection of the EU seems to have worked out well for Greece and Italy. Is this an example of monetary union? Also for the young where unemployment is high in many countries. There is also the EU defence organization which does not involve them in having an army.
I don't think anyone has suggested we would be heading for Utopia but I believe it will be a much better place than where we are now heading.
I am one of these old brexiteers who dared to voice an opinion at the ballot box in the hope that future generations would benefit from a better society than the one I envisage under the protection of the EU.

So, you want to turn the clock back to when the UK was a green and pleasant land (at least, according to your memory). I understand you don't wish to be 'indoctrinated' by anyone into the EU project and you distrust all those 'experts' who are warning you of the dangers, should we crash out of the EU. That's fine..........all you now have to do is provide some proof of how the country will prosper in the brave new world ............what will the the new jerusulem look like? Surely, if you want to persuade people to follow, you and other 'hard Brexiters' need to inform us how we will be better off? Surely you can't just expect people to swallow your vision of a promised land, when it's just based on a wing and a prayer...........i.e. anything else must be great, just as long as it's not associated with the EU. I'm sure future generations will be eternally grateful for the democratic choice you made but PLEASE tell me how our society will be better and how the young (especially those less fortunate) will fare. You can't just destroy our association with the EU without offering something, apart from vague hopes and dreams, in its place.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

If these wonderful benefits do take as much as 50 years to come about then I'll be pushing up daisies and my kids will be in their 50's and 60's. A bloody long time to wait for eutopia.

Brexitism is a kind of new religion, you won't benefit from it just now but my, you will be delighted in your afterlife...........just wait and see!

 

[rigsby]

Question for Yogi....Why do you bother with this thread?

You have repeated the same doom and fear nonsense for a number of years. You ask questions and then with out fail use dismiss anyone else with the same cut and past posts. Your not interested in anyone else or their views, just look at 2401

Your combination of arrogance and sneering at all the qualities that makes Britain great, including the very people who freed France from the last bit of European tyranny. Proves to me why you chose to live in the land of the Cheese eating surrender monkeys.

You made your choice and good luck to you. Why don't you sit back and enjoy all the benefits the EU has rewarded you with.......While you can because your just one more rampaging lorry or nightclub attack away from Marine Le Penn. Then we can all demand that you explain France's future.

 

[dcblue]

So, you want to turn the clock back to when the UK was a green and pleasant land (at least, according to your memory). I understand you don't wish to be 'indoctrinated' by anyone into the EU project and you distrust all those 'experts' who are warning you of the dangers, should we crash out of the EU. That's fine..........all you now have to do is provide some proof of how the country will prosper in the brave new world ............what will the the new jerusulem look like? Surely, if you want to persuade people to follow, you and other 'hard Brexiters' need to inform us how we will be better off? Surely you can't just expect people to swallow your vision of a promised land, when it's just based on a wing and a prayer...........i.e. anything else must be great, just as long as it's not associated with the EU. I'm sure future generations will be eternally grateful for the democratic choice you made but PLEASE tell me how our society will be better and how the young (especially those less fortunate) will fare. You can't just destroy our association with the EU without offering something, apart from vague hopes and dreams, in its place.

These experts were wrong about us not joining the euro, and many of these organizations supplying the experts receive funds from the EU which then precludes them from criticising the EU.
Jerusalem, promised land, brave new world and then religion and afterlife. This language seems to indicate you think brexit is a fantasy whereas it is a serious step towards the freedom and betterment of this country.
I'm not sure how I can give you proof of this but I have seen many occurrences where the EU has hurt us. Ie paying companies to relocate abroad, destroyed our fishing industry, reduced our farming output, mass immigration, interfered with our judicial system and also telling us where to spend our own money. I almost forgot VAT.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

My thoughts; Brexit is a serious, bad move for the UK, it is also a serious bad move for the EU. Staying in the EU, as it is at present (and also as it's future federalist agenda is becoming apparent) is also a very bad state of affairs. The politicians in this country have all told lie and fib about being in or out. AND those EU unelected persons have threatened, bullied and lied wholesale about more than most. The EU needs reform. And a back to basics ideal pf realism rather than the Franco/Lux path it is heading on, which is Titanic-esq : as is probably a Mayexit or No Deal. All in all its a ****estorm of hurricane force.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

These experts were wrong about us not joining the euro, and many of these organizations supplying the experts receive funds from the EU which then precludes them from criticising the EU.
Jerusalem, promised land, brave new world and then religion and afterlife. This language seems to indicate you think brexit is a fantasy whereas it is a serious step towards the freedom and betterment of this country.
I'm not sure how I can give you proof of this but I have seen many occurrences where the EU has hurt us. Ie paying companies to relocate abroad, destroyed our fishing industry, reduced our farming output, mass immigration, interfered with our judicial system and also telling us where to spend our own money. I almost forgot VAT.

OK, I've understood, you don't go much on experts. I can see your detestation for everything to do with the EU but your hate for that organisation appears to be all you have to offer. I'm honestly still waiting for you to tell me how Brexit will in anyway be a step towards 'freedom and betterment' for the country. Who do you think will benefit? ............how and when? I thought you were going to give me an answer but then you just fell back on another diatribe against your bête noire....the EU.
I'll give you a concrete example of one thing that frightens the life out of me (and should frighten Brexiters who extol the virtues of our wonderful NHS). When we strike our brave new trade deal with Trump's USA, how can you guarantee that the NHS and other public services won't be open to further privatisation by corporate US capital? I don't know whether she's changed her mind since February but May, at that time was certainly not offering any guarantees.............. https://news.sky.com/story/row-as-p...clusion-in-post-brexit-us-trade-deal-11240160 (I've chosen Skynews as a reference so you can't claim it comes from the biased liberal media) Maybe you think this is a good idea and will improve the quality of health in the UK? ...............perhaps it's part of your brave new world? At least this is a reliable factual prediction for our Brexit future, though maybe you will discard it as 'fake news?'

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

My thoughts; Brexit is a serious, bad move for the UK, it is also a serious bad move for the EU. Staying in the EU, as it is at present (and also as it's future federalist agenda is becoming apparent) is also a very bad state of affairs. The politicians in this country have all told lie and fib about being in or out. AND those EU unelected persons have threatened, bullied and lied wholesale about more than most. The EU needs reform. And a back to basics ideal pf realism rather than the Franco/Lux path it is heading on, which is Titanic-esq : as is probably a Mayexit or No Deal. All in all its a ****estorm of hurricane force.

Brexit is a lose/lose situation for both the EU and the UK. I would agree the EU needs reforming but would argue that is better done by staying inside. In my view it has many faults but an imperfect EU is better than washing your hands of it, especially in the present state of the world. Federalist objectives in the present environment are about as likely as Turkey joining the club and sending charabancs of their citizens to the UK! Yes, it is a bloody mess but I don't understand what your solution is.

 

[South Bank Hank]

Question for Yogi....Why do you bother with this thread?

Ask yourself the same question.

I’m not seeing anything new from either side on this. I’m certainly not seeing anyone changing their opinions. But I’m definitely seeing the same old repetition of arguments with no one listening from both sides. As I see it, there’s no reason Yogi should pay you more respect than you’re paying him. You definitely seem intent on shutting down his view. And I don’t care which way you or he voted.

What amazes me is the absolute certainty being assumed in this thread by many about why 17 million people voted a certain way - whether for or against, with the absolute certainty that they took some heroic stand for the good of their country. Doesn’t matter what side, it’s a ridiculous assertion.

There are so many reasons the vote when as it did, but the piece that sticks in the craw is that it was just about the shadiest, dirtiest, ugliest episode of politics this country ever wrote for itself. But what should we expect from our politicians when our approach is to just continue the same bull**** fight without any respect for the other side’s opinions.