Gaza

[Uncle Leo]

They have increased their support, not only in Gaza, during Israel's recent bombardments, but also world-wide.

Anyone who is more supportive of Hamas after what has happened over the last few months is surely an utter fool. Greater sympathy for the plight of ordinary Gazans, yes. But Hamas? No. Not ever.

 

[Pubey]

How do you come to terms with someone who has clearly stated that their only acceptable outcome is your complete destruction?

Well seeing as that might be their stated aim, but is in no way possible given their resources, I'd probably suggest an internationally-accepted political solution rather than a military one. Especially because the current military campaign by Israel is causing civilian causalities.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Well seeing as that might be their stated aim, but is in no way possible given their resources, I'd probably suggest an internationally-accepted political solution rather than a military one. Especially because the current military campaign by Israel is causing civilian causalities.

You may not think it's possible, but they clearly do. And they will keep firing rockets and killing Israeli civilians, and Hamas apologists like your good self will carry on obliviously accepting that the Israelis are hook nosed murderers and that Hamas just want the land that was stolen from them by the vile Jewish usurpers.

 

[londonblue]

Even Churchill said he preferred "jaw,jaw to war,war"

Sooner or later, (just as the British Government did with the IRA), Israel will have to sit down and hold peace talks with Hamas,starting with an end to the blockade of Gaza.


It's simply not good enough to label Hamas a terrorist organisation and then refuse to negociate with them.That certainly didn't work for Thatcher.

Hamas are,after all, the legally elected representatives of the Palestian people in Gaza.


They have increased their support, not only in Gaza, during Israel's recent bombardments, but also world-wide.

If Israel wants a lasting peace in the region then they will somehow have to come to terms with Hamas.

Clearly,Israel's current military strategy is not working and is in fact counter-productive.There has to be a political solution to what is essentially a political problem.

You do realise of course that the IRA agreed to stop the bombs before we agreed to talks? You're asking your friend (ok, I think I've proved the only place Israel is a friend of yours is in your own mind) to talk to a terrorist organisation hell bent on its destruction and that actually refuses to stop attacking.

I agree that a negotiated settlement is what is needed, but I don't think it is unreasonable to ask them to stop indiscriminately shelling Israel first.

As for your belief that Hamas has increased support recently I'd ask how you know that given that the understanding is the opposite, and that the people of Gaza are too scared to oppose them and speak out.

As I also said, according to various news sources, the likes of Syria, Egypt etc have turned their backs on these terrorists.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Anyone who is more supportive of Hamas after what has happened over the last few months is surely an utter fool. Greater sympathy for the plight of ordinary Gazans, yes. But Hamas? No. Not ever.

As for your belief that Hamas has increased support recently I'd ask how you know that given that the understanding is the opposite, and that the people of Gaza are too scared to oppose them and speak out.

Interviews with bombing suvivors in Gaza have made it quite clear that support for Hamas has grown in Gaza.

I've no idea when the next elections are due to be held in Gaza but I confidently predict that Hamas's support will increase.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Londonblue, it is not for me to say what you should post and debate but surely you must know that Barna revels in disagreeing with folk on here particularly when it's a issue someone is so obviously passionate about. Personally, I have chosen to ignore the man now.

Barna/Tangled is one of those people who is so intent on trying to win the argument on everything everytime that he is oblivious to the fact he alienates everyone and so ultimately loses the argument everytime.

Actually,I have the greatest respect for people like LB and ACU,who argue their case passionately but with reasoned arguments.

LB in particular is "a dynamic force." But as Baldwin said (of Lloyd George):-"A dynamic force may crush you but it is not necessarily right."

It's just that I think they're both profoundly wrong.

I also happen to think history will prove me right but only in the long term.

Which is precisely why Keynes was always in favour of short term or medium term solutions since "in the long run we're all dead."

 

[Uncle Leo]

Interviews with bombing suvivors in Gaza have made it quite clear that support for Hamas has grown in Gaza.

But worldwide, as you said in your previous post? Probably only among trust fund ***** who like wearing a keffiyeh because it makes them look cool.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Interviews with bombing suvivors in Gaza have made it quite clear that support for Hamas has grown in Gaza.

I've no idea when the next elections are due to be held in Gaza but I confidently predict that Hamas's support will increase.

More fool them! The innocent Palestinians need to see that Hamas are NOT the answer and will just increase their woes.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

And if he was really as clever as he likes us to think he is he would be quoting Clement Freud not Sigmund Freud in his signature. The former allegedly was the first to come up with this old chestnut:

This is a story about a man. His wife has told him that if he ever comes home drunk she will leave him.
Nonetheless he goes out. He drinks a lot and throws up all over himself. He turns to his friend and asks what he can do. His friend is helpful.
“Go home,” he says. “Tell your wife someone threw up on you. And put a twenty pound note inside your jacket pocket. Show her the money and tell her the other man gave it to you for the dry cleaning bill.”
So this he does. His wife is at first angry. But he explains. He tells her about the drunk man who threw up on him. He shows her the twenty pounds.
She looks. “But why have you got two £20 notes?” she asks.
“Oh,” he says. “The other one is from the man who shat in my pants.

Amusing as this joke is -surely it belongs in the pub/jokes thread?

I suspect the main reason you didn't like my SF quotation was because it was in German.

Here's a translation for you in English, (a language which Sigmund Freud neither spoke nor wrote in):-

"What a joy to be healthy,if you don't have to be alone."

Btw,even if you're not interested in SF's work,I highly recommend a visit to the SF museum in Hampstead and also in Vienna,

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

But worldwide, as you said in your previous post? Probably only among trust fund ***** who like wearing a keffiyeh because it makes them look cool.

That's a different matter obviously.

But the strength of support for anti-Israel demonstrations throughtout Europe and the World in recent weeks. would also seem to indicate that support for Hamas,as the elected representatives of the Palestian people in Gaza,has also grown.

 

[londonblue]

Interviews with bombing suvivors in Gaza have made it quite clear that support for Hamas has grown in Gaza.

It's the "in Gaza" bit that is the flaw in your argument. Collaborators etc are hanged and/or beheaded. What else are they going to say?

I've no idea when the next elections are due to be held in Gaza but I confidently predict that Hamas's support will increase.

Hamas were voted in in Jan 2006, i.e. over 8 years ago. There haven't been any elections since so it is impossible to say if their support will have increased or not because of this "war", especially as I doubt they have opinion polls very often in Gaza!

Interestingly, since their negotiations with Fatah in April, the next elections should be before the end of October this year. However, could it be that Hamas instigated this war in order to try and improve their support in time for the election? Who knows.

Don't confidently predict anything. Anything can happen. What is most important, however, is that the elections are free and fair, something I'm not sure they will be in Gaza.

 

[Reg Martin]

a tragic situation

 

[londonblue]

That's a different matter obviously.

But the strength of support for anti-Israel demonstrations throughtout Europe and the World in recent weeks. would also seem to indicate that support for Hamas,as the elected representatives of the Palestian people in Gaza,has also grown.

I don't personally think that you can extrapolate an increase in support for Hamas because of a lack of support for Israel.

I notice you point out that they were elected, and you are indeed correct. However, they bought their way into power by providing education, hospitals etc that Fatah couldn't. They did this because they were very well supported financially. However, it seems that a lot of their support has been eroded over recent weeks/years so it will be interesting to see what does actually happen, and if that loss of support has affected them financially.

What I do find interesting is that for all his posturing Haniyeh is a hypocrite of the highest order. During this "war" did you know that Israel set up a field hospital just outside Gaza in order to try and treat any injured palestinians? Did you also know that Hamas forbade any palestinian from using it?

It may be that you agree with that stance, after all why take medical treatment from the very people that are causing their injuries, right?

So, how does he explain his mother in law being treated for cancer in Israel?

So, how does he explain his granddaughter being treated for an acute infection of the digestive tract in Israel? (Tragically they weren't able to help her, and she died.)

Even his brother in law (sister's husband) was treated for a serious heart condition. Why would he tell the people of Gaza they can't use an Israeli hospital when it seems most of his family have?

In a county like Britain it would be that kind of hypocrisy that would help someone lose an election. I don't really think it will make a lot of difference in Gaza since either people won't know about it, or (I fear) won't be free to vote the way they want.

 

[londonblue]

You are right about the joke being out of place on here and, though the damage is done, I have deleted it from my original post.
My point was not really about the use of German or even Sigmund Freud, it was more about the way, to misquote someone else, that at times you wear your learning a bit too heavily. That sort of thing may play well in academic circles but not always so well in the big wide world
You obviously enjoy a good argument and there is nothing wrong with that but sometimes you appear so keen on scoring points that you are oblivious to fact that you are getting up the noses of even those people who may sympathise with some of your views. Maybe something to think about, that is all.

I too enjoy a good argument. I think what is worth noting is that however heated this discussion has become it hasn't descended into personal abuse or insults.

It can be done people!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I don't personally think that you can extrapolate an increase in support for Hamas because of a lack of support for Israel.

I certainly wouldn't infer from that recent Sunday Times YouGuv poll, that the 60% of the British population who oppose Israel's bombardment of Gaza,are all avid supporters of Hamas.

It's reasonable though (IMO),to presume that a significant proportion of that 60% do support Hamas, on the basis that Hamas are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.

Incidentally,I'd be interested to hear your opinion as to why Israel has lost so much public support in the West (and elsewhere) recently.

(Sorry but I'll go to my grave thinking of myself as a friend of Israel's).

 

[C'mon you Shrimpers]

It's reasonable though (IMO),to presume that a significant proportion of that 60% do support Hamas, on the basis that Hamas are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.

).

You are joking I know.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

This made me laugh (as do most of Private's covers).

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/covers/full/1372_big.jpg

 

[londonblue]

I certainly wouldn't infer from that recent Sunday Times YouGuv poll, that the 60% of the British population who oppose Israel's bombardment of Gaza,are all avid supporters of Hamas.

It's reasonable though (IMO),to presume that a significant proportion of that 60% do support Hamas, on the basis that Hamas are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people in Gaza.

Incidentally,I'd be interested to hear your opinion as to why Israel has lost so much public support in the West (and elsewhere) recently.

Do you really want me to go through all 15 pages of this thread again?

(Sorry but I'll go to my grave thinking of myself as a friend of Israel's).

You may well do, but that doesn't mean Israel would consider someone such as yourself to be a friend.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Do you really want me to go through all 15 pages of this thread again?

Maybe I'm getting old but I can't find any post where you've specifically addressed that YOUGUV poll result.

So yes, a summary of your analysis of the reasons for why 60% of the British people oppose Israel's bombardment of Gaza would help greatly.

Thanks.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You are joking I know.

Quite serious,actually.:winking: