Gaza

[londonblue]

My recent silence has been (mainly because)we've recently been away on holiday, without a proper net connection (until now).

But your first post back was to suggest that Hamas, a terrorist organisation, who indiscriminately fire on Israel, and are 100% guilty of war crimes, should take Israel, a country that MAY have done the same, to the ICC.

I have even given you a chance to say how abhorrent their behaviour has been, and you still couldn't do it. It says all I need to know about your support for terrorism so long as it's targeted towards Israel.

What is also true, is that Israel's recent indiscriminate bombardment of Gaza has cost it international support on a vast scale, which it may well never recover.

Is it? That's an opinion that seems not to be bourne out in fact. This tells me that you either haven't read many of the links I have provided, including the ones from Colonel Richard Kemp who happens to be the only expert out of you, me and him, or you're choosing to ignore them without having explained why you think they not worthy of consideration.

You seem to be following the logic that if you say things enough times either it must become true, or people will get fed up disagreeing with you and will let you make statements without dispute. I can assure you that won't happen here.

Did you know both the BBC and the NYT are now saying that these numbers can't be relied upon? I can't be bothered to provide the same links yet again, so here's a few quotes:

The BBC’s head of statistics Anthony Reuben, asks:

If the Israeli attacks have been ‘indiscriminate,’ as the UN Human Rights Council says, it is hard to work out why they have killed so many more civilian men than women…

…In conclusion, we do not yet know for sure how many of the dead in Gaza are civilians and how many were fighters...

However, based on previous examples of Hamas lies, I think it is pretty certain these numbers are also a work of fiction.

The [New York] Times analysis, looking at 1,431 names, shows that the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll.

The NYT goes on to say:

Human rights groups acknowledge that people killed by Hamas as collaborators and people who died naturally, or perhaps through domestic violence, are most likely counted as well.

This from a new source, but puts it all in one place:

The question echoes a New York Times analysis from earlier this week, which showed “that the population most likely to be militants, men ages 20 to 29, is also the most overrepresented in the death toll: They are 9 percent of Gaza’s 1.7 million residents, but 34 percent of those killed whose ages were provided. At the same time, women and children under 15, the least likely to be legitimate targets, were the most underrepresented, making up 71 percent of the population and 33 percent of the known-age casualties.”

Those statistics certainly don't lead me to believe it is "true" that Israel has been indiscriminate. Especially as those numbers in the quote above show that Israel has managed to keep civilian deaths in this "war" to such a low level that this "war" has the lowest proportion of civilian deaths than any war by a western country in a good number of years (don't know the exact number.)

Please feel free to ignore this because it doesn't fit in with your anti-Israel agenda.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Please feel free to ignore this because it doesn't fit in with your anti-Israel agenda.

I'm not anti-Israel at all.In fact,I've always considered myself to be a friend of Israel's.

You really need to appreciate that there's a huge difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Fantastically researched and eloquently put London Blue. We don't often agree on many things but I can't find fault with any of your argument. Credit where it's due.

 

[londonblue]

I'm not anti-Israel at all.In fact,I've always considered myself to be a friend of Israel's..

The question you have to ask yourself though is would Israel consider you a friend given that you:

• Show signs of supporting a terrorist organisation hell bent on your friend's destruction.
• Can't bring yourself to criticise a terrorist organisation for walking away from talks and starting yet another round of violence against your friend.
• Haven't once criticised said terrorist organisation for building tunnels into your friend's territory in order to carry out mass murder and kidnap.
• Suggest that someone should try and persuade a terrorist organisation and others to take your friend to court for something they themselves are guilty of.
• Tell half truths (lies if you prefer) to paint your friend in the worst possible light.

If you consider yourself a friend of Israel, no wonder its enemies are so abhorrent.

You really need to appreciate that there's a huge difference between anti-Zionism and anti-semitism.

I said anti-Israel, not anti Jewish.

I note you still haven't told me how abhorrent Hamas have been, I.e. you did what I said you would do, and ignored it!

In the meantime I found out what Hamas stands for:

Hides Amongst Mosques And Schools.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

And the question you really need to ask yourself is, why 60% of the British people polled by YouGuv in today's Sunday Times answered no to the question, "Has the Israeli bombing of Gaza been justified?" Incidententally,only 17% answered yes.

Yesterday saw protests against the bombing in London http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ailblock:Editable trailblock - news:Position2

and throughout France,where we're currently staying.

This is "a morally indefensible war" as Lady Warsi said in her her resignation letter.Why can't you see it?

 

[londonblue]

And the question you really need to ask yourself is, why 60% of the British people polled by YouGuv in today's Sunday Times answered no to the question, "Has the Israeli bombing of Gaza been justified?" Incidententally,only 17% answered yes.

Yesterday saw protests against the bombing in London http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ailblock:Editable trailblock - news:Position2

and throughout France,where we're currently staying.

This is "a morally indefensible war" as Lady Warsi said in her her resignation letter.Why can't you see it?

I think you know the answer to that, because I have provided plenty of evidence already, that seems also be have been ignored.

I notice you still can't stand up for your friend.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think you know the answer to that, because I have provided plenty of evidence already, that seems also be have been ignored.

I notice you still can't stand up for your friend.

I've stated clearly that Israel has the right to defend itself against attack.Or did you miss that?

The problem is that far too many Palestinian citizens are paying a disproportionately heavy price in "Operation Protective Edge."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28666562

 

[londonblue]

I've stated clearly that Israel has the right to defend itself against attack.Or did you miss that?

The problem is that far too many Palestinian citizens are paying a disproportionately heavy price in "Operation Protective Edge."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28666562

So do you, or do you not accept that Hamas have acted abhorrently by walking away from talks and resuming their campaign of violence? It seems to me that there is a rather large "reality gap" between you considering yourself a friend of Israel and your stance against it, as shown by me in previous posts.

I have to admit I did miss you saying Israel has the right to defend itself, so apologies for that. However, that doesn't really make you a friend of Israel does it? Most of it's detractors agree at least that much.

However, please note, it is your opinion that far too many Palestinians are paying a disproportionately heavy price. I would ask you what you mean by that because you're in danger of doing it again:

You seem to be following the logic that if you say things enough times either it must become true, or people will get fed up disagreeing with you and will let you make statements without dispute. I can assure you that won't happen here.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

However, please note, it is your opinion that far too many Palestinians are paying a disproportionately heavy price. I would ask you what you mean by that because you're in danger of doing it again:

I quoted figures (from the BBC), which supported my argument.As usual you've just ignored them.


It seems to me, you're the one with a "reality gap."

You need to understand that Israel has lost support massively in the West with its latest (in a long line of) bombing attacks on Gaza-instead of just denying this.

Until Israel's (and Egypt's) blockade of Gaza is ended, neither Hamas nor the PLO, will negociate.

End the blockade now.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

War Crimes in Gaza?

'Churchill today is remembered, rightly, as one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century. Israel has never for a moment even contemplated employing the kinds of tactics that, however much we recoil from them today, the British titan utilized to ensure his country's survival. Similar draconian tactics were employed by the United States under Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman in the war against Japan and were repeated in the saturation bombing of the Korean and Vietnam wars, both conflicts far from our shores where our own survival was not at stake. Yet instead of reducing all of Gaza to rubble, Israel has chosen to fight door-to-door and tunnel-to-tunnel, and to suffer heavy casualties of its own.

Obviously striking in this connection is the contrast between Israel and Hamas, which has engaged in a wide variety of war crimes that, beyond those previously mentioned, include aiming rockets at civilian targets, using Red Crescent ambulances to ferry fighters, and carrying out attacks during a U.N.-sponsored truce. Particularly noteworthy among its assortment of violations is the use of Israeli uniforms by Hamas fighters as they carry out attacks.'

 

[A Century United]

I quoted figures (from the BBC), which supported my argument.As usual you've just ignored them.


It seems to me, you're the one with a "reality gap."

You need to understand that Israel has lost support massively in the West with its latest (in a long line of) bombing attacks on Gaza-instead of just denying this.

Until Israel's (and Egypt's) blockade of Gaza is ended, neither Hamas nor the PLO, will negociate (sic).

End the blockade now.

So Israel must now allow a militant terrorist group (and internationally recognised as terrorists, not just labelled by Israel) complete freedom to import all the weapons explosives and building materials it needs to relaunch the terrorist attacks on the civilian population of Israel that were so prevalent before the blockade, and in return Hamas, which actually champions genocide in its charter, will only then take part in further talks about "peace"?

And you accuse others of having a reality gap? Ye Gods!!

 

[A Century United]

And while we are on the subject of the "Blockade" this article puts a slightly different light on what's happening...

[h=1]The Real "Siege" of the Gaza Strip[/h]by Khaled Abu Toameh

Egypt has not only turned Gaza into an "open-air prison." It has prevented the delivery of humanitarian aid to the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip before and during the war.
Last year, more than 100 Muslim scholars signed a petition accusing Egypt and Arab countries of participating in the siege of Gaza by keeping Egypt's Rafah border crossing with Gaza closed and preventing medical and humanitarian aid.
Egypt does not want anyone to talk about its blockade of Gaza. At the cease-fire discussions taking place in Cairo, the Palestinians have been asked not to talk about the Rafah border crossing between Gaza and Egypt.
The Egyptians want the world to blame only Israel for the "siege" on the Gaza Strip, and turn it into an Israeli, and not an Egyptian, problem.
While Egypt continues to impose strict restrictions, hundreds of trucks of food and basic supplies — and ambulances and medical staff from Israel — are being transported into Gaza through border crossings with Israel.
Whatever is ultimately decided, Hamas's leaders will find ways to smuggle weapons into Gaza: their goal is to destroy Israel.
​

Recent calls for lifting the "siege" on the Gaza Strip have ignored that Hamas's main demand, even more than for an airport or seaport, is that Egypt reopen the Rafah border crossing, the Palestinians' only gateway to the Arab world.
Hamas wants open borders because it wants to pursue its ultimate goal of "liberating all Palestine, from the river to the sea." Now that it has lost most of its smuggling tunnels as a result of Egyptian military operations, Hamas is searching for other ways to bring weapons into the Gaza Strip.
Hamas's leaders know that their chances of getting an airport or a seaport are extremely low. In the past, material brought into Gaza has included mainly weapons, cement taken to build attack-tunnels into Israel, and dual-use material.
Much of this was either brought into Gaza through smuggling tunnels, or else through Egypt's Rafah terminal, along its Gaza border which is nearly nine miles [14 km] long.
Egypt's Rafah terminal with Gaza, however, has been closed most of the time since Hamas seized control over the Gaza Strip in July 2007, while border crossings with Israel, such as Kerem Shalom and Erez, have remained open.


Even during the current Operation Protective Edge, the Egyptians rejected demands to reopen the Rafah terminal indefinitely. In the first two weeks of the war, the Egyptians did open the terminal briefly – but only to allow Egyptians citizens and some foreigners trapped in the Gaza Strip to leave.
Facing increased criticism at home and in the Arab world, the Egyptian authorities also permitted some wounded Palestinians to cross through the terminal for medical treatment in Egyptian hospitals.
Egypt has not only turned the Gaza Strip into an "open air prison." It has also prevented many activists and countries from delivering humanitarian and medical aid to the Palestinians of the Gaza Strip, both before and during the war.
Egypt does not want anyone to talk about its blockade and other restrictions against the Gaza Strip.
At the cease-fire discussions currently taking place in Cairo between Israel and Hamas through Egyptian mediators, the Palestinians have been asked not to talk about Egypt's Rafah border crossing.
The Egyptians want the world to blame only Israel for the "siege" on the Gaza Strip. They continue to ignore the fact that Hamas's main demand continues to be the reopening of the Rafah border crossing.
Hamas and the Palestinian factions in the Gaza Strip have apparently chosen to comply with the Egyptian demand to remain silent about the continued closure of the Rafah border crossing.

The Full Article

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Israel has lost the propaganda war against Hamas.

"We are all Palestinians now".


http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lestinians-world-israel-collective-punishment

 

[londonblue]

I quoted figures (from the BBC), which supported my argument.As usual you've just ignored them.


It seems to me, you're the one with a "reality gap."

You need to understand that Israel has lost support massively in the West with its latest (in a long line of) bombing attacks on Gaza-instead of just denying this.

Until Israel's (and Egypt's) blockade of Gaza is ended, neither Hamas nor the PLO, will negociate.

End the blockade now.

Firstly, as I pointed out, the numbers quoted by yourself have been questioned by the very people that originally provided them. You seem not to want to accept that because it doesn't fit in with your obvious anti-Israel bias.

Please also note, that the blockade came as a result of terrorist attacks, not the other way around. In a perfect world I agree with you that there should be no blockade, it is difficult to know how Israel could minimise further attacks without it.

Please also show me the quote where I deny Israel has lost support?

In the meantime, have a read of this, it will give more detail on the blockade.

Blockade Myths

Because I know you won't read it, here's some quotes:

There is no reason whatsoever to "reopen the crossings" because Kerem Shalom [I assume to be the new crossing] can handle all of Gaza's import and export needs.

In fact, Kerem Shalom can handle more goods than all of the closed crossings ever could - combined.

Crossings such as Nahal Oz and Karni were closed over the years because they weren't secure. Those crossings were a tempting target for terrorists to attack. They can never re-open.

But Kerem Shalom - a hugely expansive and extraordinarily impressive feat of engineering and logistics - was sized to handle all of Gaza's needs if necessary. And it can do it without risking any Israeli lives (a forthcoming post will go into more detail.)

Besides a small list of "dual use" materials, Israel imposes no restrictions on Gaza imports. Even some of the "dual use" materials can be imported under certain conditions - for example, international NGOs can import construction materials. Israel allows potentially dual use items, such as CO2, to be imported on a case by case basis as well.

The head of the crossing told me that the idea of limiting cement and other construction material to "international agencies" was a joke. He said UNRWA doesn't send their own trucks to pick up the cement; they rely on contractors who he knows well, and he knows that they redirect some of the materials meant for agencies like UNRWA to the black market and to Hamas. The people ordering the items purposefully overestimate the amount needed so cement can be diverted - and some no doubt go to Hamas terror tunnels.

If needed, Kerem Shalom can run on three shifts, 24/7. But today there isn't the demand.

All Gaza imports are arranged between Gaza businessmen and NGOs, and Israeli or other suppliers. If Gazans needs more, they can buy it. There are no practical limits on how much Gaza can import even if its economy grew dramatically. No limits on fuel. No limits on raw materials for factories (again, except dual use materials.)

However, I'm still waiting for you to condemn Hamas for attacking your friend.

 

[londonblue]

Israel has lost the propaganda war against Hamas.

"We are all Palestinians now".


http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lestinians-world-israel-collective-punishment

So now you accept they are losing the propaganda war. You therefore accept that everything coming out of Gaza is just that, propaganda that has nothing to do with the truth.

However, the interesting thing is that Syria, Egypt and various other Muslim countries have turned their back on Hamas. The only country that is still funding them (apparently) is Qatar, who are hosting the 2022 world cup. (It will be interesting to see what happens if Israel qualify!)

 

[londonblue]

Deleted....I can't use a PC!

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

So now you accept they are losing the propaganda war. You therefore accept that everything coming out of Gaza is just that, propaganda that has nothing to do with the truth.

However, the interesting thing is that Syria, Egypt and various other Muslim countries have turned their back on Hamas. The only country that is still funding them (apparently) is Qatar, who are hosting the 2022 world cup. (It will be interesting to see what happens if Israel qualify!)

Londonblue, it is not for me to say what you should post and debate but surely you must know that Barna revels in disagreeing with folk on here particularly when it's a issue someone is so obviously passionate about. Personally, I have chosen to ignore the man now.

 

[Reg Martin]

Londonblue, it is not for me to say what you should post and debate but surely you must know that Barna revels in disagreeing with folk on here particularly when it's a issue someone is so obviously passionate about. Personally, I have chosen to ignore the man now.

He certainly does

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Even Churchill said he preferred "jaw,jaw to war,war"

Sooner or later, (just as the British Government did with the IRA), Israel will have to sit down and hold peace talks with Hamas,starting with an end to the blockade of Gaza.


It's simply not good enough to label Hamas a terrorist organisation and then refuse to negociate with them.That certainly didn't work for Thatcher.

Hamas are,after all, the legally elected representatives of the Palestian people in Gaza.


They have increased their support, not only in Gaza, during Israel's recent bombardments, but also world-wide.

If Israel wants a lasting peace in the region then they will somehow have to come to terms with Hamas.

Clearly,Israel's current military strategy is not working and is in fact counter-productive.There has to be a political solution to what is essentially a political problem.

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

Even Churchill said he preferred "jaw,jaw to war,war"

Sooner or later, (just as the British Government did with the IRA), Israel will have to sit down and hold peace talks with Hamas,starting with an end to the blockade of Gaza.


It's simply not good enough to label Hamas a terrorist organisation and then refuse to negociate with them.That certainly didn't work for Thatcher.

Hamas are,after all, the legally elected representatives of the Palestian people in Gaza.


They have increased their support, not only in Gaza, during Israel's recent bombardments, but also world-wide.

If Israel wants a lasting peace in the region then they will somehow have to come to terms with Hamas.

Clearly,Israel's current military strategy is not working and is in fact counter-productive.There has to be a political solution to what is essentially a political problem.

How do you come to terms with someone who has clearly stated that their only acceptable outcome is your complete destruction?