Gaza

[steveo]

Cant agree on this. By proportionate response do you mean Israel should fire rockets back and make sure they have no effect?
Surely intent had something to do with it. Hamas are presumably trying their hardest to kill Israelis and don't give a **** about who gets hurt. Why should Israel be different? Were America wrong to drop the bomb that ended ww2?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

It's a distortion of the truth since this issue was dealt with in the peace negotiations as per the wiki page I provided a link to. It might be worth you reading it.

It may have been the case at the time, but if Arafat would have signed the peace treaty all these people would have been compensated, and I'm sure any future peace settlement (I'm still an optimist by the way) will also revisit this.

What on earth makes you think I didn't?

 

[MK Shrimper]

No they aren't. They are production-line military grade weapons. I do urge you to read the article by Colonel Richard Kemp, who is a genuine authority on terrorism, which londonblue linked to. Does it not worry you that not once on the BBC have I heard any reference to Hamas casualties as opposed to "Civilians"? That the figures quoted are completely unverified by any independent body and are produced by Hamas themselves? That the fact that the majority of "Civilians" killed have been men of fighting age?

The Truth About Gaza's Civilian Casualties

I was all going along with this, but then I wonder why Israel isn't more vocal about Hamas' actions in getting their own people killed - they banned foreign media from a press conference yesterday. If there is any truth in this I'd want to tell it to the world before there is serious sanctions imposed and/or Netanyahu is impeached for war crimes.

 

[londonblue]

No they aren't. They are production-line military grade weapons. I do urge you to read the article by Colonel Richard Kemp, who is a genuine authority on terrorism, which londonblue linked to. Does it not worry you that not once on the BBC have I heard any reference to Hamas casualties as opposed to "Civilians"? That the figures quoted are completely unverified by any independent body and are produced by Hamas themselves? That the fact that the majority of "Civilians" killed have been men of fighting age?

The Truth About Gaza's Civilian Casualties

The problem also is that Hamas, and before them the PLO, can't be trusted with these numbers. They all have previous when it comes to lying.

As Richard Kemp points out, in Operation Cast Lead in around 2008 we were being told by Hamas and various NGOs in Gaza (i.e the UN etc.) that only 49 of the 1166 Gazans killed were soldiers, and the rest were civilians. The IDP said it was just over 700 soldiers. However, everyone believe Hamas and the NGOs, and this is what was reported. What wasn't reported was that some time later Hamas admitted the number was actually nearer the IDF number, and was somewhere between 600 and 700.

The most extreme example of their lies was the so called massacre in Jenin. Because I can't be bothered to type the whole story, here's a link:

Wikipedia

And to save time a quote:

On April 7, senior Palestinian official Saeb Erekat suggested to CNN that some 500 Palestinians had been killed in the camp. Five days later, when the fighting stopped, PA Secretary Ahmed Abdel Rahman told UPI that the number was in the thousands, hinting, along with other Palestinian figures, that Israel had snatched bodies, buried Palestinians in mass graves and under the rubble of ruined buildings, and otherwise conducted on a scale compatible with genocide."
Stories of hundreds of civilians being killed in their homes as they were demolished spread throughout international media. Subsequent investigations found no evidence to substantiate claims of a massacre, and official totals from Palestinian and Israeli sources confirmed between 52 and 54 Palestinians, mostly gunmen, and 23 IDF soldiers as having been killed in the fighting

However, this investigation was never reported in this country, only the stories of the "massacre" were. I find it incredulous that people have such short memories that they still believe the numbers coming out of Gaza and don't caveat them in any way.

 

[londonblue]

I was all going along with this, but then I wonder why Israel isn't more vocal about Hamas' actions in getting their own people killed - they banned foreign media from a press conference yesterday. If there is any truth in this I'd want to tell it to the world before there is serious sanctions imposed and/or Netanyahu is impeached for war crimes.

I guess the simple reason is because no-one listens, and what's worse is that they ignore any evidence that doesn't fit with what they've already decided. There's no benefit in talking to people like that.

 

[londonblue]

[video=youtube_share;D_cAFbHZNcU]http://youtu.be/D_cAFbHZNcU[/video]

Out of interest I've just done a small amount of research into this because I found it difficult to believe that only one news outlet would be able to get a report out and no-one else could. I.e. is it fake?

I spoke to a couple of Indian guys at work who both said that NDTV is a very well respected channel and are renowned for getting into war zones and reporting from there. It seems that this is actually genuine...

It also turns out they're not the only ones that have managed to do that either. A Finnish reporter has reported seeing rockets being launched from the Shifa hospital that triples up as an underground arms cache, and a Hamas command centre.

A French Arabic reporter also nearly soiled herself when a rocket is launched from what seems to be right next to her, thus putting her, and her crew's life in danger.

 

[londonblue]

What on earth makes you think I didn't?

Because I was giving your use of a half truth the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Because I was giving your use of a half truth the benefit of the doubt.

Initially, you suggested my claim was "a lie",then "partially true",now a "half truth." Which is it and why?

FYI,I did indeed read your wiki link-I assume you're referring to the one about the Camp David peace talks?

Surely,the most significant thing about the CD talks was that they failed?

Israel might have promised reparations and the right of return as part of the peace process talks but since those talks came to nothing,so did the promises.

I'm glad you're optimistic about possible peace talks again in the future (so am I as it happens).Until they occur though, Palestian farmers won't be fully compensated for land they lost in '48,nor will their descendants be guaranteed the right of return to Palestine.

These are both hugely contentious and problematic issues,as I'm sure you're well aware.

 

[londonblue]

Initially, you suggested my claim was "a lie",then "partially true",now a "half truth." Which is it and why?

FYI,I did indeed read your wiki link-I assume you're referring to the one about the Camp David peace talks?

Surely,the most significant thing about the CD talks was that they failed?

Israel might have promised reparations and the right of return as part of the peace process talks but since those talks came to nothing,so did the promises.

I'm glad you're optimistic about possible peace talks again in the future (so am I as it happens).Until they occur though, Palestian farmers won't be fully compensated for land they lost in '48,nor will their descendants be guaranteed the right of return to Palestine.

These are both hugely contentious and problematic issues,as I'm sure you're well aware.

To my mind because it is a half truth it is also a lie.

If you were being fair minded you would have said that no compensation/right of return was given at the time, but that it had been discussed as part of previous peace negotiations, and hopefully would be part of any future peace negotiations.

To my mind, because you decided to omit that after having read the article, you had told a half truth, which in turn means you had lied.

If you had not read the article then it would have been a distortion of the truth for the same reasons.

 

[MK Shrimper]

So the 72 hour ceasefire ends with a rocket attacks by Hamas.

 

[londonblue]

So the 72 hour ceasefire ends with a rocket attacks by Hamas.

Didn't know about that, but surprise surprise.

What also isn't a surprise is the headline on the BBC website:

"Israel air strikes resume in Gaza amid rockets"

They couldn't possibly put something like:

"Hamas Breaks Ceasefire"

or even

"Hamas Breaks Ceasefire, Israel Retaliates"

Even the first paragraph of their article says:

Israel says it has resumed air strikes in Gaza after Palestinian militants fired rockets following the end of a three-day truce on Friday morning.

Why does it always lead with what Israel has done, rather than what Hamas has done?

What is worse, the article also then goes on to the numbers game, and uses the UN as a source for those numbers. Forgetting of course previous complicity by NGOs such as the UN in Hamas misrepresentations during the Jenin non massacre and Operation Cast Lead.

It is incredible how forgetful these people can be.

 

[A Century United]

Didn't know about that, but surprise surprise.

What also isn't a surprise is the headline on the BBC website:

"Israel air strikes resume in Gaza amid rockets"

They couldn't possibly put something like:

"Hamas Breaks Ceasefire"

or even

"Hamas Breaks Ceasefire, Israel Retaliates"

Even the first paragraph of their article says:



Why does it always lead with what Israel has done, rather than what Hamas has done?

What is worse, the article also then goes on to the numbers game, and uses the UN as a source for those numbers. Forgetting of course previous complicity by NGOs such as the UN in Hamas misrepresentations during the Jenin non massacre and Operation Cast Lead.

It is incredible how forgetful these people can be.

Indeed. The reports also focus on "A Palestinian has died, hospital reports" with no clarification of the age sex or circumstances of the death. Can people cast their minds back, and try and remember if even once any of the news channels have tried to differentiate between civilian and terrorist deaths, if even once it has been mentioned that the death toll in Gaza includes a very large number of men of fighting age killed fighting.

From every report I have read, heard or seen you would assume that the 1,800+ deaths that Hamas have reported have all been civilians, which is very far from the truth. Yet every report on Israeli casualties takes great pains to point out that only 3 have been civilians.

 

[londonblue]

Indeed. The reports also focus on "A Palestinian has died, hospital reports" with no clarification of the age sex or circumstances of the death. Can people cast their minds back, and try and remember if even once any of the news channels have tried to differentiate between civilian and terrorist deaths, if even once it has been mentioned that the death toll in Gaza includes a very large number of men of fighting age killed fighting.

From every report I have read, heard or seen you would assume that the 1,800+ deaths that Hamas have reported have all been civilians, which is very far from the truth. Yet every report on Israeli casualties takes great pains to point out that only 3 have been civilians.

It also turns out that Israel had agreed to extend the ceasefire to continue talking, and Hamas didn't. Yet the headlines lead with Israel, and only mention this in the 2nd last paragrah.

 

[A Century United]

And as if by magic, buried under the story above but not given its own headline, we find this from the BBC statistics department:

Caution Needed With Gaza Casualty Figures

Which is exactly the point that has been made on here - but if the BBC are actually aware of the unreliability of the figures, of the over-representation of fighting age men and the strong under-representation of women and children, if they admit that this implies that Israeli strikes have not been indiscriminate, why are they not modifying their reports to reflect this deeper and more even-handed understanding of what is happening?

Two reasons, possibly - either there is division in the BBC with the statistics department doing their job and unhappy with the casual and misleading use of death statistics by front-line and editorial staff or:

*Conspiracy Theory Warning*

The BBC are aware of how biased their reporting has been and is posting the report so they can point to it in the event of any future enquiry into that reporting, as proof of their even-handedness.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Her's an idea (or two).

Why not take Israel to the ICC (International Criminal Court) for war crimes?

And also stop supplying them with weapons from the Uk.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

For that to happen there would need to be an investigation (independent international police), the gathering of evidence and a prima facia case against individuals.
Your idea is a non starter at present and quite naive.
There might have been a chance for individual crimes/murders by snipers but again evidence would be essential with a willingness to co-operate by parties involved.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

For that to happen there would need to be an investigation (independent international police), the gathering of evidence and a prima facia case against individuals.
Your idea is a non starter at present and quite naive.
There might have been a chance for individual crimes/murders by snipers but again evidence would be essential with a willingness to co-operate by parties involved.

Not that naive.It's possible that Hamas and the PLO may yet be persuaded to take Israel to the ICC.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

The "easy" crimes are the kidnaps and murders, can't imagine much co-operation there.

 

[londonblue]

Not that naive.It's possible that Hamas and the PLO may yet be persuaded to take Israel to the ICC.

Given that every single indiscriminate rocket sent into Israel is a war crime (as admitted by the Palestinian ambassador to the UN) they'd be mad to.

However, your silence on the Hamas terrorists not agreeing to extend the ceasefire in order to continue talking, and then sending yet more rockets (or shall we call them war crimes) into Israel is deafening.

What is also interesting is that the truth is starting to come out. Please don't read this as it might prove Israel has not been indiscriminate:

BBC (Yes, believe it or not, the BBC)

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Given that every single indiscriminate rocket sent into Israel is a war crime (as admitted by the Palestinian ambassador to the UN) they'd be mad to.

However, your silence on the Hamas terrorists not agreeing to extend the ceasefire in order to continue talking, and then sending yet more rockets (or shall we call them war crimes) into Israel is deafening.

What is also interesting is that the truth is starting to come out. Please don't read this as it might prove Israel has not been indiscriminate:

BBC (Yes, believe it or not, the BBC)

My recent silence has been (mainly because)we've recently been away on holiday, without a proper net connection (until now).

What is also true, is that Israel's recent indiscriminate bombardment of Gaza has cost it international support on a vast scale, which it may well never recover.