Why such a poor start?

[Beefy]

I understand what you are saying about conclusions etc..but it does not lessen the fact that being top in August gives you a better chance of promotion than being bottom. Surely?

Obviously because you've got more points.

No one is happy that we've got zero points. Everyone would prefer it if we had six points. That isn't the debate. The debate is whether we can read anything into the fact that we've got zero points or whether we just happen to have been hit with a sucker punch on Saturday and then paid the price for going down to ten men early last night. If it's the latter then we could have played these two games and got these two results in the middle of November or the start of February and no one would have batted an eyelid because we'd have points on the board by then.

Swindon and Crewe both went up last season despite having mediocre and poor starts to their seasons. We'll lose a lot of matches this season, just like every other side will.

 

[Kevin Hogg]

Yes, Staines Shrimper, it is not the end of the world to start poorly as Crewe Alex showed last season. However, I would rather rely on points accumulated than just be left hoping for better to come.

 

[Jam_Man]

every team has cued onto our style of play.

really against crewe away thats all we did and dave artell was winning everything

Which is why I said in my post, other than Crewe where we reverted to it out of desperation.

We werent playing like that the last 4 or 5 games at home after Freddy joined.

Welly 7 hit the nail on the head.
For those who keep saying 'but we changed our style' -where is your evidence? 45 mins against Accrington, then the manager reverts to type and lumps it long to a big man up front, keeps ball playing strikers like Benyon/Harris on the bench or plays them out of position.
We all tolerated the 'direct style' last season as the manager told us this was the way to get promotion and 'one more heave' would get us over the line. It didnt and we (he) failed. In reality we got found out by January and never did have enough points in reserve to drag us over the line. I suspect some of the palyers are at odds with the managers style, and PS has no plan B. Hall is creative, but wants to go, with him probably gone next week where is the creativity coming from?
The thought of another season of that hoofball dross whilst sides pass around and through us already makes me feel nervous about our chances for this season.

Every home game after Cheltenham last season when Freddy joined (except Crewe in the play offs). Cheltenham we played one up front but played good football (mainly due to being against 10 men) then we played 442. There was a clear change in the passing and I wonder what games some people are watching if they cant notice the difference.

As for Accrington for45 minutes ? Cresswell didnt come on till the 72nd minute when we went more direct (ie the Plan B he doesnt have) . If PS had done nothing and made no changes he would get slaughtered for that too.

Its not 'hoof ball' you are unhappy with, its losing.

 

[DistantBlue]

Ladies and Gents,

I have never ever been called an optimist but I would just like to make a couple of points which might may you feel a
a little better about things.

1) As a previous poster mentioned - Swindon had a dreadful start to their Championship winning season.They lost 4 out of their 1st 5 games and still came top by some way.I'm not saying that we will be the same but

2)Swindon's poor start was put down to the fact that a good number of their team were new to the team and they took a
serious bit of time to bed down as a unit.
Looking at our team last night I notice that Straker,Spicer,Cresswell,Hurst and Tomlin all started .
It may well be that these new guys will be far more cohesive in 2/3 weeks from now and we might be singing a different song.
Hope I'm right , but we must not get too down too soon.

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

Yes, Staines Shrimper, it is not the end of the world to start poorly as Crewe Alex showed last season. However, I would rather rely on points accumulated than just be left hoping for better to come.

As I said, I never mentioned points other than that there were 132 left to play for. My statement was not to bother looking at the table until 10 games are gone as people are massively overreacting on here after a couple of defeats, and I'm sure it hasn't been helped by everyone opening up their papers this morning to see we're bottom of the football league today.

 

[sufc_dave]

Ok we have lost 3 games and shifted a lot of goals but:

1) The first game was against a Championship side, who always score goals. We let in 4, but did anyone really think we were going to get an away result anyway?

2) The Accrington game was a very poor game. No doubt about that, we should have beaten them. But we still had a fair few chances compared to their one. Another day we could of grabbed one.

3) We lost to Oxford after playing the majority of the game with 10 men, after a dodgy call by the ref. Playing away with 10 men is always going to be difficult.

So, thats 2 out of 3 games we have played away and lost without scoring, when the odds were stacked against us in both games. At least give it a few more games.

 

[Norwichshrimper]

Players we have are definitely one of the best squads in the division, and no matter what anyone says Sturrock has always done well wherever he has gone and has had progression in each season with us. One better next year is 3rd which will do me fine.

I'm not saying you are wrong - but i'd be quite interested to know what that assumption is based on.

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

I'm not saying you are wrong - but i'd be quite interested to know what that assumption is based on.

It's based on watching us play in this division for what is now 3 seasons. I could go through each position (including the manager) and explain why I feel we are better than most teams, but I think we're all aware of who we have and how good they can be at their best. No teams have had a major shake up from last season, with the exception of Barnet (maybe Rotherham too)and their club change to become the Barca of league 2, and I don't see them in the top half of the league. York will be similar to AFC Dons from last year and Fleetwood similar to Crawley, two teams we could beat when we're at our best. Our playing budget is also one of the biggest in the league, and this inevitably nearly always has a factor in what area of the league you'll finish in.

The fact I keep saying "when we're at our best" does tell me we do have a lot of work to do still, but I can't see too many people on here disagreeing that this squad will gain promotion if they play to their potential. We have all the ingredients for a fantastic season, it just drives me mental when people are all doom & gloom after 3 defeats...hence why I'm trying to bring a brighter view to the board.

 

[Jam_Man]

You are watching us play though Staines.

How are you judging the other 23 teams ?

I think I know a fair bit about our team but I cant claim to know anything about 99% of the rest of the players in this league just because we have played them a couple of times a year.

 

[Norwichshrimper]

It's based on watching us play in this division for what is now 3 seasons. I could go through each position (including the manager) and explain why I feel we are better than most teams, but I think we're all aware of who we have and how good they can be at their best. No teams have had a major shake up from last season, with the exception of Barnet (maybe Rotherham too)and their club change to become the Barca of league 2, and I don't see them in the top half of the league. York will be similar to AFC Dons from last year and Fleetwood similar to Crawley, two teams we could beat when we're at our best. Our playing budget is also one of the biggest in the league, and this inevitably nearly always has a factor in what area of the league you'll finish in.

The fact I keep saying "when we're at our best" does tell me we do have a lot of work to do still, but I can't see too many people on here disagreeing that this squad will gain promotion if they play to their potential. We have all the ingredients for a fantastic season, it just drives me mental when people are all doom & gloom after 3 defeats...hence why I'm trying to bring a brighter view to the board.

Thanks for that - as I said I wasn't suggesting you were right or wrong, but there are many opinions (or "facts") banded around here without anything to back them up. I sincerely hope you are right!

nb -Rotherham have signed 13 players in the close season, most from a higher level than us....(and perhaps a certain ex shrimper to follow :whistling:) - so they do seem to be trying to be the Barca of league 2 - albeit without the pretty football and the charming manager!

Promotion is not beyond us this year, but we'll have to work really hard for it. I just think those with the "automatic promotion or failure" opinion perhaps are not seeing the whole picture.

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

You are watching us play though Staines.

How are you judging the other 23 teams ?

I think I know a fair bit about our team but I cant claim to know anything about 99% of the rest of the players in this league just because we have played them a couple of times a year.

Are you saying you're going into this season with absolutely no idea as to how we're going to do or how any other teams will do? I made my statement based on what I have seen the past two seasons (as most clubs have stuck with their core squad over the summer), based on playing budgets and based on a general knowledge of lower league players and where they've gone. It's not an exact science, but on paper, man for man there are only a few players currently in this division who, I feel, could come into our starting line up and really make a genuine improvement- when all of our players are playing to the best of their ability not just based over the past three games.

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

Thanks for that - as I said I wasn't suggesting you were right or wrong, but there are many opinions (or "facts") banded around here without anything to back them up. I sincerely hope you are right!

nb -Rotherham have signed 13 players in the close season, most from a higher level than us....(and perhaps a certain ex shrimper to follow :whistling:) - so they do seem to be trying to be the Barca of league 2 - albeit without the pretty football and the charming manager!

Promotion is not beyond us this year, but we'll have to work really hard for it. I just think those with the "automatic promotion or failure" opinion perhaps are not seeing the whole picture.

I wasn't talking about Rotherham trying to be the Barca of league 2, not with that fat **** in charge :smile: Barnet have changed their whole club philosophy and modelling everything their doing on the "Barca Model" due to their brand new amazing training facility at The Hive. Investing at least £1 million in youth every year now, they've had a major shake up, but IMO will struggle for a few years at least, even though it is a great route to go down long term.

Anyway, back on topic, we do have a very tough season ahead of us, and not for one moment am I suggesting we're going to run away with the league. But we do have all the tools for a successful season, which is more than some other fans could say of their own teams in this league.

 

[Norwichshrimper]

I wasn't talking about Rotherham trying to be the Barca of league 2, not with that fat **** in charge :smile: Barnet have changed their whole club philosophy and modelling everything their doing on the "Barca Model" due to their brand new amazing training facility at The Hive. Investing at least £1 million in youth every year now, they've had a major shake up, but IMO will struggle for a few years at least, even though it is a great route to go down long term.

Anyway, back on topic, we do have a very tough season ahead of us, and not for one moment am I suggesting we're going to run away with the league. But we do have all the tools for a successful season, which is more than some other fans could say of their own teams in this league.

That's certainly a change of idea for Barnet - when I was a kid I played against Barnet Youth a number of times. i think they used to play at Arnos Park and they were awful. Be interesting to see how that pans out as there is already a very well established youth set up in that area (The Hive) linked to the Wingate & Finchley Senior team.

 

[Jam_Man]

Are you saying you're going into this season with absolutely no idea as to how we're going to do or how any other teams will do? I made my statement based on what I have seen the past two seasons (as most clubs have stuck with their core squad over the summer), based on playing budgets and based on a general knowledge of lower league players and where they've gone. It's not an exact science, but on paper, man for man there are only a few players currently in this division who, I feel, could come into our starting line up and really make a genuine improvement- when all of our players are playing to the best of their ability not just based over the past three games.

Pretty much.

I go in thinking we did well last season so expect the same level, but thats not because I have indepth knowledge of the Hereford or Bradford squads. Couldnt tell you who played for either.

Other than Rotherham doing well due to investment, Fleetwood due to momentum, and Barnet doing poorly because they always do I couldnt tell you where the rest of the league will finish.

Only when the table starts showing how good everyone is will I know anything...

 

[Blue_Shrimper1959]

Pretty much.

I go in thinking we did well last season so expect the same level, but thats not because I have indepth knowledge of the Hereford or Bradford squads. Couldnt tell you who played for either.

Other than Rotherham doing well due to investment, Fleetwood due to momentum, and Barnet doing poorly because they always do I couldnt tell you where the rest of the league will finish.

Only when the table starts showing how good everyone is will I know anything...

Well that's good because Hereford were relegated last year ;)

 

[Rusty Shackleford]

So we have had the worst start in 20 years. 3 defeats (1 cup) out of 3. No goals scored, 7 goals conceded (4 in cup), injury problems and now Timlin suspended for a game.

But what is the reason for this awful start?

• Are the players not fit enough?
• Are the players not good enough?
• Are the players not focussed enough?
• Is the manager adopting the wrong tactics?
• Is the manager selecting the wrong team?
• Is the team not settled enough?

Or are there more deep rooted issues here that we are unaware of?...on and/or off the pitch?

Not a lot to be upbeat about at the moment. But, we are only a few games into the season. No need to panic just yet. We do need to start seeing an improvement quickly though.

I would vote 'all of the above'.

 

[Jam_Man]

Well that's good because Hereford were relegated last year ;)

Told you I dont know anything about other teams :smile:

 

[meerkat54]

Not enougth quality in the squad !

 

[Maldon Blues]

every team has cued onto our style of play.

really against crewe away thats all we did and dave artell was winning everything

Dave Artell didn't play in that game!

 

[bigmolt]

I wasn't talking about Rotherham trying to be the Barca of league 2, not with that fat **** in charge :smile: Barnet have changed their whole club philosophy and modelling everything their doing on the "Barca Model" due to their brand new amazing training facility at The Hive. Investing at least £1 million in youth every year now, they've had a major shake up, but IMO will struggle for a few years at least, even though it is a great route to go down long term.

Anyway, back on topic, we do have a very tough season ahead of us, and not for one moment am I suggesting we're going to run away with the league. But we do have all the tools for a successful season, which is more than some other fans could say of their own teams in this league.

Do these TOOLS you mention include Sturrock, Prosser, Straker, Barker, Leonard, and then there are the best two tools that look like leaving, Hall and Moshni. Not forgetting the ones made of glass, Eastwood, Phillips, Cresswell and Corr !! :omg: