TODAY'S TROUBLES.

[Sao Paulo Shrimper]

After waking up this morning expecting to see more news on CNN regarding Israel and Lebanon, i was unpleasantly surprised to see that the police in the UK had unfoiled a plot by a terrorist group to blow up a number of planes travelling from the UK to the States.

So people if we hadn't been on the ball then it could have been another 9/11 with huge deaths on our hands due to these c%&ts and their crazy beliefs but how many times will they try again and the threat of them being succesful is a big worry to me.

In my view enough is enough now and they are just taking the **** our of us and surprise surprise, a number of the suspects are Muslim/British living in the UK but what can we do about it, ban any muslims from entering the UK???. That obviousley can't and won't work but what can we do to stop these animals commiting these obscene crimes against innocent people who are travelling to see relatives, to work and on their holidays and what is this world coming to when you cant even do that in peace.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

I fear there is not a lot one can do to prevent a religious fundamentalist from doing what he thinks is right ...

 

[chadded]

Out of interest, when the troubles in Ireland were at their peak, was there a similar amount of 'hatred' directed towards the Irish as there currently is towards Muslims?

 

[shrimptank]

The trouble with fundamental extremists is that fundamentally they are extreme!

Seriously though, there is nothing anyone can do to stop really radical people of any race, religion, or state of mind from doing the most abhorrent of crimes should they believe it right.

Mr Plod and his gang have their work cut out and if they go steaming into people's homes and arrest a a few people wrongly because they are tipped off, i think they are not only well within their rights, but also have the full support of the nation.

 

[J]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ Aug. 10 2006,18:48)]I fear there is not a lot one can do to prevent a religious fundamentalist from doing what he thinks is right ...

how can barry get away with that, and me to be hounded out after a typing error..

 

[Sao Paulo Shrimper]

I would not like to see it but i can see England having some serious social problems if this continues which is more than likely. I think the Bradford and Oldham riots are the tip of the iceberg of what is coming and the BNP will be having a field day recruiting new members the more this continues.

The gap will get so big i can see a civil war in the next 10 years easliy.

 

[Bielzibubz]

There is absolutely nothing any of us can do to stop Islamic fundamentalists from enacting their warped sense of justice on the innocent people of this world.
Nothing that is until the Zionist, neo-conservative, right wing Christian hawks (Bush, Wolfawitz, Cheney, Rove, Leyhe, etc etc...and the lapdog that is Blair and his cohorts are run out of office in their respective countries and the west stops trying to instill its idea of democracy and freedom onto countries that we have no ethical or moral right to be doing so.
Make no mistake. They are the ones responsible for the terrortist outrages we have seen in the last few years. Not responsible as in they were the ones carrying out those atrocities (unless your a conspiracy theorist of coarse) but responsible for alianating vast numbers of otherwise law abiding Muslims by forcing their political, religous and military will upon countries around the Middle East and beyond. Incidentally, right back to 1954)

Whilst the fundementalist Christian right and military machine holds on to so much power within the Republican Administration in America and while Blair and this government cowtails to its every whim the situation will only get worse.

My views are contensious yes, some would say inflamatory but the information thats lead me to these views is out there for all to see and read. It's just not in the mainstream media, you have to look for it.

What's happened today will by no means be the last time we see this. The atrocity that was averted today will happen. Innocent people will be killed and maimed. But to get a true perspective on WHY this is happening and will continue to happen for years to come you have to dig beyond what we are fed on a daily basis and start to understand why.

We are all being taken to hell in a hand cart and there is virtually bugger all any of us can do about it.

 

[J]

i feel sorry for the ones that get it taken out of them.. like the MAJORITY of good law abiding muslims.. just like the IRA were a bad reflection of catholicism

 

[hexagon_sun]

I would say the first step we take is to considerably distance ourselves from monkeyboy Bush and the US foreign policy. As long as the world sees us as lapdogs of that despicable man and his administration then we are to expect more of what happened today.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

It needs the MCB and British-based Imans (all of them) to get out there and start distancing the Islamic faith (in the UK at least) from the extremists who will continue to fight for what they believe is right for the whole Islamic world. Without such action, Britain and the rest of the Western world will inevitably slide very quickly towards civil disturbances based on religious hatred. It needs the Islamic authorities to say "this is nothing to do with us, this is nothing to do with the will of Allah" and convince the Muslim communities to kick out this sort of extremism before it's too late. The fire is coming but they still have a chance to stop it ... before it's too late ...

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (hexagon_sun @ Aug. 10 2006,21:09)]I would say the first step we take is to considerably distance ourselves from monkeyboy Bush and the US foreign policy. As long as the world sees us as lapdogs of that despicable man and his administration then we are to expect more of what happened today.

Indeed. How those two morons Bush and Bliar can even have the cheek to claim that the world is a safer place after the dismantling of the Saddam regime in Iraq is beyond any comprehension. The world is, in fact, a far more dangerous world that it has ever been for many, many years and our freedom is gradually being whittled away. Actually maybe that's the whole point, maybe they are not as stupid as we make out. Maybe we're looking at control being implemented on the fear of terrorism? Hmm ... where's Michael Moore?

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

It would seem that the only thing that Orwell got wrong was his date when he wrote 1984. What with chav speak, and biometrics "to make us all feel safer against the common enemy", it's as if Orwell had a bloomin' crystal ball.

Uncanny, I tells ya, uncanny.

Completely agree about the MCB too. Someone needs to say loud and clear "Islamism is not Islam, and if you follow the former, you contravene the latter."

Matt

 

[Sao Paulo Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ Aug. 10 2006,20:10)]It needs the MCB and British-based Imans (all of them) to get out there and start distancing the Islamic faith (in the UK at least) from the extremists who will continue to fight for what they believe is right for the whole Islamic world. Without such action, Britain and the rest of the Western world will inevitably slide very quickly towards civil disturbances based on religious hatred. It needs the Islamic authorities to say "this is nothing to do with us, this is nothing to do with the will of Allah" and convince the Muslim communities to kick out this sort of extremism before it's too late. The fire is coming but they still have a chance to stop it ... before it's too late ...

You are right there Michael my son but it seems alot of them are more interested in getting apologies for this and that, rather than distancing themselves which will help the cause greatly in my view. From there the right wing parties such as the BNP will use this and brainwash the British public into thinking their way which wont be too difficult at the moment.

I actually agree with some of their views, not all i might add because my Grandfather fought against the more extreme facist ways but they have a good point on a number of issues that are affecting our lives today.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

The problem we have is that violence appears to be integral to Islam.

Several studies have concluded that Muhammad was indeed a terrorist himself and, based upon Muhammad's actions and teachings, Islam justifies terrorism.  Today, Muslims use that justification to attack and murder those who differ from them, they consider themselves to be following in Muhammad's footsteps. One study claims that "many Muslims are peace-loving people and are thoroughly disgusted about the acts of Islamic terrorism. Most Muslims do not know these historical facts about their own prophet. But Muslim terrorists are usually well-educated in Islam. They are pious people. Spiritual leaders. And they do what they do and how they do it following the example of their prophet."

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, (which is Islam that abolishes all other religions ) of the people of the Book, (meaning the Jews and the Christians ) until they pay the Jizya (the tax imposed upon them) with willing submission and feel themselves subdued. (with humiliation and submission to the government of Islam.) 9:29

That's our problem. We have a group of religious zealots who believe that what they are doing is right for mankind because their prophet Mohammad said so. Who knows; maybe they are right?! But the fact is that whatever our governments think they can achieve by embarking on this so-called "War against Terrorism", no tank or bunker buster will stop a determined extremist carrying out his violent deed.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Quote[/b] (Xàbia Shrimper @ Aug. 10 2006,20:10)]It needs the MCB and British-based Imans (all of them) to get out there and start distancing the Islamic faith (in the UK at least) from the extremists who will continue to fight for what they believe is right for the whole Islamic world. Without such action, Britain and the rest of the Western world will inevitably slide very quickly towards civil disturbances based on religious hatred. It needs the Islamic authorities to say "this is nothing to do with us, this is nothing to do with the will of Allah" and convince the Muslim communities to kick out this sort of extremism before it's too late. The fire is coming but they still have a chance to stop it ... before it's too late ...

Mike, I fear it is already to late. The neo-conservative Christian right and the MIC (Military Industrial Complex) that has been at the forefront of American political and military agendas for the past 50 odd years stated in a secret document called the PNAC, Project for a New American Century.
Dated 1997 and released under the freedom of information rules. It states " The Israelis, and the American Christian corner have always understood that the road to Damascas runs through Bagdad" it goes on to state " The American public would not support an Iraqi war plan short of ...some kind of catastrophic catalyzing effect - like a new Pearl Harbor". (911 anyone)

And the rest, as they say, is history.

It really is to late for the MCB and the Imans to publicly distance themselves from these extremists. In fact they have tried on numerous occasions both on TV and in the papers. One of the problems with the Muslim faith structure is that it's doctrine can be interpreted in many different ways and in the eyes of many young muslims in this country - and abroard - that doctine has been interpreted and twisted to justify their extreme views and no amount of distancing from the MCB will change their view.

 

[steveo1]

Quote[/b] ] How those two morons Bush and Bliar can even have the cheek to claim that the world is a safer place after the dismantling of the Saddam regime in Iraq is beyond any comprehension

and if it hadnt been dismantled? Iraq may eventually have become a nuclear power so we wouldnt have to worry about a terrorist threat anymore. Just a nuclear attack from a bloke who was always quite happy to kill his own people let alone us westerners.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Quote[/b] (steveo1 @ Aug. 10 2006,20:59)]

Quote[/b] ] How those two morons Bush and Bliar can even have the cheek to claim that the world is a safer place after the dismantling of the Saddam regime in Iraq is beyond any comprehension

and if it hadnt been dismantled? Iraq may eventually have become a nuclear power so we wouldnt have to worry about a terrorist threat anymore. Just a nuclear attack from a bloke who was always quite happy to kill his own people let alone us westerners.

Valid point concerning the nuclear theory but if it wasn't for the American administration at the time he wouldn't have had the ability to commit genocide of the Northern Kurdish community. The base chemicals were supplied by Dow Chemicals, a company with close links to Bush Snr (Dick Cheney, Bush's Chief of Staff and CEO of Dow Chemicals at the time) personally oversaw the deal that supplied those chemicals and is pictured shaking hands with Saddam Hussein. They knew exactly what he wanted those chemicals for but morality and ethics become secondary when long term agendas are at stake.

The world is littered with dictators that opress and kill their fellow countrymen on a daily basis but the west conveniently turns a blind eye to these atrocities. Throughout history I think you'll find that all dictators ( Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Ling Tao etc) have primerilly been concerned with holding on to power in their own country and not invading any neighbouring one. Iraq being the exception with Kuwait but I doubt should he have had a nuclear capability he would have used it. Dictators are mad/insane from a morality point of view but not insane enough to risk annialation of their own power base.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

Quote[/b] (steveo1 @ Aug. 10 2006,21:59)]and if it hadnt been dismantled? Iraq may eventually have become a nuclear power so we wouldnt have to worry about a terrorist threat anymore. Just a nuclear attack from a bloke who was always quite happy to kill his own people let alone us westerners.

Yes, he was quite happy to kill his own people (including fellow Muslims) to maintain his power over Iraq BUT he harboured little interest in taking on the West. Indeed he provided a perfect foil against extremist Islamic beliefs when he went to war with Revolutionary Iran in the 80s and his intention to annex Kuwait in the early 90s was partly due to his conviction that the Arab states should have shared the cost of keeping fundamentalism at bay. Promoting the spread of Islam? He probably tried to engineer the unification of Arab states against Israel (historically a problem stretching back many, many years) but there was never any intention of attacking the West. Why should he risk his control of Iraq and his influence over much of the Middle East by doing so? It wouldn't have made any sense. As a result Islamic extremism had to go the other way - Afghanistan. The US-led coalition might have had some justification in attacking the Taliban government but not Iraq. There was - and still is - no proof of any connection to terrorism to pre-war Iraq. Saddam Hussein ran a tight ship and it's pretty sure he wasn't going to spoil it by encouraging extremism in the West. Then the Bush adminstration leapt in feet first and what's happened -- the rapid rise of extremism in Iraq and across the Middle East when previously it was very much kept in check by Saddam. A nuclear attack against the West? Let's not get drawn in by the lies from the Bush and Bliar administrations -- so long as he was in power I don't think Saddam Hussein had any intention of attacking the West, especially with so-called 'weapons of mass destruction'. And the world was safer then. It's certainly not now ...

 

[sufcintheprem]

This phrase "The War on Terror" still really annoys me. Let's be honest, it might as well be the war on fear.

It's just a massive pretext with an event that started it so emotionally moving that the USA has just about managed to geti it moving.

As D62 says, there are countless dictators around the world that could have been (and still might) be targeted if we are trying to protect every citizen in the world from fear but none is more strategic than the position of a US friendly government in the middle of the Middle-East.

As Mike says, the declaration of war on Iraq was completely unnecessary and groundless. Even when this has been proved, Bush is still in power making noises about Iran and Blair is still in charge in spite of lying to the country about it. Interesting about Iran and North Korea. They have both been stubborn in their development of arms yet we haven't seen any invasion from America in spite of the evidence that they are much more advanced in the development of these arms than Iraq ever was.

If I was an Arab right now, I reckon I'd be mightily ****ed off at how a country that is the biggest consumer of our biggest export keeps meddling in our affairs.

 

[Bielzibubz]

It's refreshing to see some others share my views somewhat on this topical hot potato. If you don't have a view one way or another may I suggest you check out some of the following books.

Grand Theft Pentagon: Jeffery St. Clair - Tales of corruption and profiteering in the war on terror.

House of Bush - House of Saud: Craig Unger - The Secret Relationship Between The Worlds Two Most Powerful Dynasties.

The Halliburtan Agenda: Dan Briody - The Polotics of Oil and Money.

Chain of Command: Seymour M Hersh - The Truth About Iraq.

American Dynasty: Kevin Philips - Aristocracy, Fortune and the Polotics of Deceit in the House of Bush.

The Retreat of Reason: Anthony Browne - Political Correctness and the Corruption of Public Debate in Modern Britain (one for CSJ there

)

Welcome to the USSA: Ryan Dawson - Corruption in the Government and Media.

You Are Being Lied To: Various contributors - The Disinformation Guide To Media Distortion, Historical Whitewashes and Cultural Myths.

I make no apology for putting these books forward on here as 'must reads'. The thread has slightly deviated from it's original topic but it's something I feel strongly about and believe the ONLY way we, as free thinking people can make a difference to our future is to know the truth no matter how unpalatable that truth may be.

All may not be lost. Slowly but surely both the American and British public are waking up to the facts. When enough do perhaps, just perhaps, it won't be to late.