The problem is in the defense and not up front

[OldBlueLady]

Believe it or not, I actually agree with a lot of what you say, first time for everything hey, apart from the bit about Collis. I agree that Collis is a much taller keeper, so in theory should give us more protection from set pieces, and be able to command his area a lot better. The problem is, he doesn't do that.

He has a height advantage on Darryl, but he simply doesn't use it to any great effect. He doesn't command his box anywhere near as well as Darryl does, and that's saying something, and he is nowhere near as vocal as Darry, and I don't believe the defence are as confident with him behind him as they are Darryl.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against Collis, he is your average League One/Two goalkeeper, but he is not, IMO, in the class of Flahavan, and I think people are too quick to suggest he is the answer purely because he has a height advantage.


I have said for a long time that Hammell, as much as I like him for his set pieces, and his forward runs, is a poor defender, and often gets caught out of position, or even out done by genuine pace. I don't think his anticipation is what it should be for a Championship/League One left back, and I believe he offers less than Che did in terms of pure defending - In addition, Che was better in the air.

Haven't seen the goals yet but I agree with much of what you're saying. Darryl for me commands the area much more vocally than Collis. You lot know whereabouts I sit and I don't think I've ever heard Collis shout whereas with Darryl you hear it loads. I feel the defence are usually more comfortable with him there because they can leave him to make decisions although by the sound of things yesterday, things went rather wrong. Not his fault he's short, he's just had a long spell out and is not quite 100% up to standard (by that, I mean he hasn't played enough matches to be fully match aware).

The points about Hammell I completely agree with, like the bloke going forward and he can read play well, but can't make a defensive tackle to save his life IMO and gets caught out of position, Che was far more dependable defensively. Was Hunt off his game? Couldn't listen to it so don't know, I think it may be worth giving Richards a run as it sounds as if a bit of hoofing might relieve the pressure a bit. I think I might question just what Dean Austin is doing, as mentioned, he was brought in to coach the defence, yet we still have this incredible leaking problem which just isn't good enough. Pains me to say it, but I think Barrett or Clarke needs to be sacrificed for a few games. If Hunt is now suspended, perhaps that'll give Scannell a start and Francis moving back.

I also agree with the point made elsewhere that Maher is being missed defensively, I think he's a much better reader of the threat of other teams than Macca is, so I think I'd be considering a recall for him. Put Bailey in the slightly more forward role and Maher in the rearguard.

At least scoring wasn't a problem again, well done to those that travelled, let's put this one to bed and look forward to Friday. UTB!

 

[Wickford Blue]

Saw the goals late last night and heard Tillys comments and would suggest that Barret needs a break at fault for at least 2 of the goals

 

[* ORM *]

* * * W A R N I N G * * *

All these posts saying Barrett must be dropped and Maher must play are tantamount to saying ORM has been right all along for the past 3 seasons.

Still only another 4 years of dodgy defending to endure, but AB puts his heart into it and body on the line so the fact that he is tactically inept is fine. 3 of 4 defenders play in a line - guess who the odd one out is ?

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Collis - 31 goals conceded in 27 games (average 1.15)
Orville - 17 goals conceded in 7 games (average 2.43)

I rest my case.

 

[fbm]

Its nothing new. Last season we needed 4 goals at home to get 3 points.

I think we have enough defensive cover in midfield. Nicky Bailey is an exceptional footballer defensively. Maybe he is having to push too far forward, but most goals aren't coming from a lack of central midfield cover.

Our problems are as follows:

1. Lack of a commanding centre-half. Ever since Sodje broke his leg at Bournemouth in March 2006 this has been a problem. Clarke and Barrett is not the solution. We might get away with it occasionally, but they've been hurting us big time. Again its no surprise to see someone like Richie Barker cause us problems.

2. Lack of someone taking command at the back. We've missed the exceptional Spencer Prior more than most have realised. Prior was fantastic in organising the defence. Barrett went where Prior told him to. Clarke and Barrett might be good at leading by example, but they can't command a back line. The situation is exacerbated by having a mute goalkeeper who can't command his 6 yard box, let alone a defence.

3. Lack of height in the rest of the team. Even if we get a tall centre-half in and an organiser, we're still vulnerable at set pieces when we've one player over 6 foot and a garden gnome in goal. Last season we tried to replace Benno with JCR, a ridiculous move which unsurprisingly left us struggling at set pieces. Its great to have players who want to pass the ball on the deck, but you've got to have players who can cope with it physically. We're too small. Hopefully Harrold and Collis will be back soon, as he'll help, but even with them back in we need more height in the team.

4. Add in the fact that the likes of Peter Clarke, Hammell and as much as it pains me to say, Barrett are defensively dodgy. Its all well and good being good on the ball, but you've got to defend first and foremost.

I apologise for repeating the same things week after week for nearly two seasons, but the same problems remain and it deeply worries me that Tilly can't see it.

Agree with almost all of that. I used to think Darryl was mute too, but having stood behind the goal a couple of times I am amazed at just how vocal he was - much more than Collis.

At the end of the day the keeper is the last line of defence. If the 10 in front do their job he shouldn't be called on that often and either of our keepers are certainly good enough for this division.

The problem we have this year is that we are not scoring when we are on top. Some of our football has been sublime but we lack the killer blow. At 1-0 or 2-0 up everyone plays differently. At 0-0 or 1-0 down we are under pressure and the nerves start jangling. For years we have been playing handicap football, frequently having to score twice just to get a point. Even in our L2 promotion year we conceded 2 or more goals 16 times (inc cup games) and it was only the middle-latter part of the season when we started to keep clean sheets... ironically after Freddy signed. Once the goals start going in, the game changes and the defence is under less pressure, which backs up my point.

We have just about the strongest midfield in the division I reckon. If they hadn't contributed so much we would be down near the bottom, believe me.

Harsh though it may be on either player, I also feel we need a man mountain alongside either Barrett or Clarke. Liptak may be the answer.

Incidentally, for anyone who has the Destination Chamionship DVD - just rewatch it and see how awesome Gray, Goater and Eastwood were. I'd have any one of those just now.

 

[Clinton Baptiste]

Dont think Tilly has the balls to drop Clarke or Barrett. Think he will just hope it sorts itself out. Which it wont.

 

[Groyne Strain]

We're a good to average League One side. Looking at the merits of the team and relative abilities, the neutral observer would place them as .... well, a good to average League One side.

Which isn't so bad for a team that apparently has no forwards, defenders but does have dodgy goalkeepers. Our midfielders must be world class then. Which is a phrase I often think of when the likes of Maher and Macca are strutting their stuff.

The midfield is the future, mark my words. You know it makes sense.

 

[bigmolt]

Collis is an amateurish juggling clown, he would not have changed the result tonight although there are bigger problems than the keepers at the moment!

i agree totally.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Collis is an amateurish juggling clown, he would not have changed the result tonight although there are bigger problems than the keepers at the moment!

I repeat my post from earlier

Collis - 31 goals conceded in 27 games (average 1.15)
Orville - 17 goals conceded in 7 games (average 2.43)

 

[Kris]

Dont think Tilly has the balls to drop Clarke or Barrett. Think he will just hope it sorts itself out. Which it wont.

In fairness, Tilly has already dropped Maher, Flahavan and Gower this season - three players that were previously considered "favourites". He also dropped Clarke last season and even Barrett had a spell on the bench when Sodje and Prior were the first choice pairing.

Dropping Barrett would be an intriguing move, simply because it would mean both our captain and vice-captain out of the side (I'm guessing Peter Clarke is third in command?). I think Tilly is more likely to drop Clarke, however.

 

[Ailsa Road Shrimper]

I think Flavs is a better keeper than Collis, although Collis is a very able deputy. Although Collis is taller than Flavs he doesn't use his height to claim crosses.

Maybe Lee Turner needs to work with them both to make them more confident about coming off their goaline for crosses? Also, they both need to be more vocal.

Flavs is a better shot stopper, Collis isn't bad but on occasions he does parry the ball straight back into the danger area, wheras Flavs catches cleanly or at least turns the ball behind for a corner.

The defence is the main problem, not our goalkeepers. We need two Sodje/Proir types in front of Flahavan. The best example of how this worked effectively was against Man Utd, as Sodje and Prior dominated leaving Flavs to deal with long range shots, which he's excellent at coping with.

 

[Richard_Cadette]

Collis - 31 goals conceded in 27 games (average 1.15)
Orville - 17 goals conceded in 7 games (average 2.43)

I rest my case.

I don't think that proves anything does it? Does that take into consideration who the opposition were? Does it take into consideration what players were playing in front of him during that period? Does it take into account what kind of run of form we were in during that period?

I would have thought you would have known better than to just produce a stat like that, and assume it means Collis is the better option in goal, without considering any of the factors I have just mentioned... I think you could be the type of Journo The Sun are looking for :)

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Agree with almost all of that. I used to think Darryl was mute too, but having stood behind the goal a couple of times I am amazed at just how vocal he was - much more than Collis.

At the end of the day the keeper is the last line of defence. If the 10 in front do their job he shouldn't be called on that often and either of our keepers are certainly good enough for this division.

The problem we have this year is that we are not scoring when we are on top. Some of our football has been sublime but we lack the killer blow. At 1-0 or 2-0 up everyone plays differently. At 0-0 or 1-0 down we are under pressure and the nerves start jangling. For years we have been playing handicap football, frequently having to score twice just to get a point. Even in our L2 promotion year we conceded 2 or more goals 16 times (inc cup games) and it was only the middle-latter part of the season when we started to keep clean sheets... ironically after Freddy signed. Once the goals start going in, the game changes and the defence is under less pressure, which backs up my point.

We have just about the strongest midfield in the division I reckon. If they hadn't contributed so much we would be down near the bottom, believe me.

Harsh though it may be on either player, I also feel we need a man mountain alongside either Barrett or Clarke. Liptak may be the answer.

Incidentally, for anyone who has the Destination Chamionship DVD - just rewatch it and see how awesome Gray, Goater and Eastwood were. I'd have any one of those just now.

I too was surprised how much Flahavan shouted when I went to a reserve game he played in. However, he was captain for that game, and as the game went on he seemed to get quieter and quieter. My impression was that someone had told him to be louder. The thing is that he was just shouting for the sake of shouting, rather than giving directions that people could act on. Its all well and good shouting "out" but you need to give the person you are shouting at a chance to clear it, rather than shout it as they make contact with the ball. Unfortunately Flahavan is indecisive and poor at reading the game - the main reasons (and not his height) why he is weak at crosses - and this means he struggles to talk players through the game. He is mute at the times he needs to be vocal.

As for the problem being not killing teams off, I still think the problem is the defence. The fact that the attack know they have to score 2 or 3 goals each game to have a chance of winning, puts more pressure on the team going forward. If we had a defence such as the Prior-Sodje defence, the team would be more relaxed going forward. I think most people would agree that chances are more likely to be taken by confident, relaxed players. our great strength in our title winning team was that as soon as we took the lead it was more often or not match over. There was far less anxiety that we had to score a second to kill the game off. Probably the mantra of the Tilson era has been encouraging the players to have the confidence express theirselves. This is so much easier when they have confidence in the defence.

FWIW I have little confidence in Liptak being a man mountain. From what little I've seen of him, he doesn't look to use his size. He may turn into a good player, but I don't think he'll be the physically dominating player that we so desperately need.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Collis - 31 goals conceded in 27 games (average 1.15)
Orville - 17 goals conceded in 7 games (average 2.43)

I rest my case.

Wiggy - care to respond?

I also think that both Yorkshire Blue and Richard Cadette, between them, are talking a lot of sense, even if they disagree on some points - although I think RC is wrong on Flavs. As Darryl ages, the only two weapons in his locker - his reflexes and his agility - will go, and once they're gone, I'm afraid he has nothing else to offer. That's not to say Collis is the answer either... hopefully, however, Clark Masters will be.

I can't believe that, this late into the season, we're still having to trawl over the fact that Clarke and Barrett do not work as a central defensive partnership. Tilson has an unenviable task, here. Both Barrett and Clarke are big characters, and big dressing room leaders. Dropping either is not only difficult, but may damage morale.

For my money, I'm a little disappointed that the rumours of Leeds being interested in Hammell weren't a little stronger. I've nothing against Stevie - he's a trier, and has some quality on the ball - but he's not a long-term solution at left back due (largely) to a lack of pace and a very average sense of positioning. Had we been able to sell him, then Barrett could have moved to left back, and someone else (Danny Cullip isn't a bad shout) could move alongside Clarke at centre-half.

As long as Clarke & Barrett remain as our centre-half pairing, however, any notions that we might feature in the play-off picture remain utterly risible. Forget it. No side that concedes 4 at Hartlepool, 3 at Brighton, 4 at Leeds, 4 at Forest and 3 at Doncaster deserves to be anywhere near the promotion race. End of.

I couldn't give a t*ss if we signed another striker during this transfer window - scoring goals clearly isn't a problem for us. But the failure to address our very grave defensive problems will see us finish this season in the bottom half of the table, IMHO.

:(

Matt

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I don't think that proves anything does it? Does that take into consideration who the opposition were? Does it take into consideration what players were playing in front of him during that period? Does it take into account what kind of run of form we were in during that period?

I would have thought you would have known better than to just produce a stat like that, and assume it means Collis is the better option in goal, without considering any of the factors I have just mentioned... I think you could be the type of Journo The Sun are looking for :)

Good point, Flahavan's inferior record was against teams as poor as Dagenham, Bournemouth, Hartlepool, Brighton.

Leeds and maybe Watford reserves were the only half decent teams he's played against this season.

We need a stat that takes into account that a team like Yeovil only had one shot all game.

 

[BILLERICAY BLUE]

Good point, Flahavan's inferior record was against teams as poor as Dagenham, Bournemouth, Hartlepool, Brighton.

Leeds and maybe Watford reserves were the only half decent teams he's played against this season.

We need a stat that takes into account that a team like Yeovil only had one shot all game.

Thank's YB. I wouldn't have had until later to trawl through all the games. BTW Collis played against Watford reserves.
Flavs games - Orient, Brighton, Leeds, Bournemouth, Dagenham, Hartlepool, Millwall and Yeovil.

Sorry my mistake in the previous stat - Orville 17 goals conceded in 8 games (missed Millwall) (average 2.13) Still a goal a game more than Collis.

 

[Matt the Shrimp]

Thank's YB. I wouldn't have had until later to trawl through all the games. BTW Collis played against Watford reserves.
Flavs games - Orient, Brighton, Leeds, Bournemouth, Dagenham, Hartlepool, Millwall and Yeovil.

Sorry my mistake in the previous stat - Orville 17 goals conceded in 8 games (missed Millwall) (average 2.13) Still a goal a game more than Collis.

And, at the time, Bournemouth and Millwall were gash, Yeovil and Pools had come off the back of 2-0 home defeats (and the former only had one shot all afternoon from which they scored), Daggers were a League Two side, and Brighton were distinctly average until they brought on Bas Savage (and trailing 2-1 to us at the time).

So, of those sides to whom Darryl has conceded 2.13 goals a game, only two of them (Dirty Leeds and the Ooze) were much cop.

If he really is the best we have, we're in trouble.

:(

 

[SUFCLiam]

i dont think it is the back four because hammell, clarke, barret and hunt are great defenders

 

[Sean 2]

i dont think it is the back four because hammell, clarke, barret and hunt are great defenders

:hilarious:


I'd stop smoking that gear if i were you mate,although.....
if that's the effect it has maybe you ought to pass it along





NB This is intended as a comic post and in no way implies that SUFCLiam
dabbles in anything untoward of the drugs variety,i don't even know the bloke so don't sue my ****.

 

[Beefy]

Good point, Flahavan's inferior record was against teams as poor as Dagenham, Bournemouth, Hartlepool, Brighton.

Leeds and maybe Watford reserves were the only half decent teams he's played against this season.

We need a stat that takes into account that a team like Yeovil only had one shot all game.

I can't believe how much of a scapegoat you are making of Flavs. Yeovil's "one shot" was from a player who was unmarked six yards out from a cross that bobbled across the area at about four miles per hour. You can't allow that to happen and then blame the keeper. Particularly as the shot was a mis-hit anyway.

We need a new centre-half and a new goalkeeper. But if it's a choice between Flavs and Collis then Flavs wins every time for me.