Thanks Kev - but is a new manager needed?

[blues exile]

I’m sorry Kev has obviously never apologised for running over your cat.

In terms of points gained, Kev has improved us season upon season. I’m obviously not allowed to mention the 10 point deduction, as you deem that irrelevant to anything, but I’m talking about points Kev picked up, not what a league table says.

I don’t know how he peaked two seasons ago, and is in “obvious decline” when he was better last season than his “peak”. He picked up more points last season, had us in contention of the play-offs, and we would have made it without the thing you deem irrelevant. So irrelevant that it meant we missed out on the play-offs, so I’m not sure how “irrelevant” that is…

That’s the first time you’ve criticised the players. I thought it was all Kev’s fault. That’s what you’ve stated before. I can’t disagree too much on the players, however I still think Husin, Miley & Bridge haven’t “peaked”, I think they haven’t hit the standards they achieved last season, which is the point I’ve been making for ages, but a point you’ve never recognised till now.

I’m glad I don’t like in a world that means you only seem to see the negative, and all the blame is at one person. Kev isn’t perfect, he does have flaws, however we’d be in a worse position without him.

He put his hand in his pockets, along with the likes of TL and the other amigos, to pay security staff to ensure games went ahead. He helped players and members of staff financially when they went months without being paid, all at a time he wasn’t being paid. I won’t name names of those still here, but Kensdale was one he helped, which is why the Kensdale situation hurt him, and the other players so much.

Please refer back to the excellent post by @Exiled Shrimper

I will not descend to your level of debate with juvenile comments such as your opening remarks.
Last season was an ideal opportunity to get in the playoffs with only Chesterfield looking automatic promotion favourites but a dismal run of results late December and early in the new year (5 losses out of 7) plus the home defeat in the last game of the season put paid to that. We knew we were starting with a deficit of 10 points to make up and that must have been factored in at the very start.
As to the first time I have criticised individual players I suggest you read previous posts more carefully before making spurious claims. Finally playing for sympathy with 'inside' information about Maher's acts of charity however laudable has no relevance to the current situation

 

[Thundersley Blue]

I will not descend to your level of debate with juvenile comments such as your opening remarks.
Last season was an ideal opportunity to get in the playoffs with only Chesterfield looking automatic promotion favourites but a dismal run of results late December and early in the new year (5 losses out of 7) plus the home defeat in the last game of the season put paid to that. We knew we were starting with a deficit of 10 points to make up and that must have been factored in at the very start.
As to the first time I have criticised individual players I suggest you read previous posts more carefully before making spurious claims. Finally playing for sympathy with 'inside' information about Maher's acts of charity however laudable has no relevance to the current situation

You have a short memory. Just look back to the teams Kevin was forced to field at that time, no chance of winning games with the likes of Vilhete and Kabongolo up front. The team massively over achieved last season.

 

[sufc4life21]

I’m sorry Kev has obviously never apologised for running over your cat.

In terms of points gained, Kev has improved us season upon season. I’m obviously not allowed to mention the 10 point deduction, as you deem that irrelevant to anything, but I’m talking about points Kev picked up, not what a league table says.

I don’t know how he peaked two seasons ago, and is in “obvious decline” when he was better last season than his “peak”. He picked up more points last season, had us in contention of the play-offs, and we would have made it without the thing you deem irrelevant. So irrelevant that it meant we missed out on the play-offs, so I’m not sure how “irrelevant” that is…

That’s the first time you’ve criticised the players. I thought it was all Kev’s fault. That’s what you’ve stated before. I can’t disagree too much on the players, however I still think Husin, Miley & Bridge haven’t “peaked”, I think they haven’t hit the standards they achieved last season, which is the point I’ve been making for ages, but a point you’ve never recognised till now.

I’m glad I don’t like in a world that means you only seem to see the negative, and all the blame is at one person. Kev isn’t perfect, he does have flaws, however we’d be in a worse position without him.

He put his hand in his pockets, along with the likes of TL and the other amigos, to pay security staff to ensure games went ahead. He helped players and members of staff financially when they went months without being paid, all at a time he wasn’t being paid. I won’t name names of those still here, but Kensdale was one he helped, which is why the Kensdale situation hurt him, and the other players so much.

Please refer back to the excellent post by @Exiled Shrimper

Kev Southend legend which know 1 has really have argument with. The problem is the fan doesn't care about what happens off the pitch, the fan cares what happens on it and so far it's been poor season. The football is boring and predictable which kev is solely responsible for....... kev unfortunately is 1 of those managers is to safe in his approach, would rather play for 0-0 draw than go for 3-2 win. That's always been his approach which the fan is getting bit annoyed with and understandable to after 3 years of kev ball. £400 for slow boring predictable football isn't value for money which is probably 1 of the reason for some fans to call for change. Personally I would give kev till the end of the season and review his position then. Kev great guy and will always be Southend legend but as manager I'm not so sure he got what it takes to get Southend playing some half decent football and challenging for promotion.

 

[BoyWonder2]

Kev Southend legend which know 1 has really have argument with. The problem is the fan doesn't care about what happens off the pitch, the fan cares what happens on it and so far it's been poor season. The football is boring and predictable which kev is solely responsible for....... kev unfortunately is 1 of those managers is to safe in his approach, would rather play for 0-0 draw than go for 3-2 win. That's always been his approach which the fan is getting bit annoyed with and understandable to after 3 years of kev ball. £400 for slow boring predictable football isn't value for money which is probably 1 of the reason for some fans to call for change. Personally I would give kev till the end of the season and review his position then. Kev great guy and will always be Southend legend but as manager I'm not so sure he got what it takes to get Southend playing some half decent football and challenging for promotion.

The last two seasons we missed out on the playoffs on the final day of the regular season. So he has had us challenging…

Very easy for some people to forget what Kev has done and rewrite history.

 

[BoyWonder2]

I will not descend to your level of debate with juvenile comments such as your opening remarks.
Last season was an ideal opportunity to get in the playoffs with only Chesterfield looking automatic promotion favourites but a dismal run of results late December and early in the new year (5 losses out of 7) plus the home defeat in the last game of the season put paid to that. We knew we were starting with a deficit of 10 points to make up and that must have been factored in at the very start.
As to the first time I have criticised individual players I suggest you read previous posts more carefully before making spurious claims. Finally playing for sympathy with 'inside' information about Maher's acts of charity however laudable has no relevance to the current situation

He must have done something. I never seen you put a positive word about Kev. I’m the most Maher In someone could be, but I can still admit he has flaws and hasn’t been perfect, but whenever we’ve done well, in your eyes, it’s been inspite of Kev, but whenever we’ve done poorly it’s because of Kev.

An “ideal opportunity” to get into the playoffs? I know you think the 10 point deduction is “irrelevant” but how is having a 10 point deduction an “ideal opportunity” to get into the playoffs? How is having a transfer and registration embargo all season an “ideal opportunity” to get into the playoffs? How’s naming 12/13/14 man squads, and having Gus go in goal, and Brooklyn & Vilhete upfront an “ideal opportunity” to get into the playoffs? Surely you don’t believe that do you?

Personally, I’m done with debating this with you. You think Kev is everything that is wrong. You don’t think anything else is hampering what we are doing. You are entitled to your opinion, but I’m done.

I could give more stories of how much of a top bloke Kev is, and I have a story involving myself and Kev which will tell you what a top bloke he is but obviously that is “no relevance to the current situation”…

 

[Shrimperjohn]

Wes had his distractors but he was one of the few players in our team that constantly played the ball forward be it with his own runs or passes.. he has not been adequately replaced

 

[sufc4life21]

The last two seasons we missed out on the playoffs on the final day of the regular season. So he has had us challenging…

That's great but we can't keep looking back. We need to look at where we are currently at. Southend are underachieving which is on the manager and his negative way of playing. 15th in the league with 3 home wins and 24 goals scored in all games in the National league is pretty crap. With this current squad they should be performing better than what they have done so far...... that is solely on the manager approach to games. We are far to negative at times which is leading to frustration from the fans and it's understandable. The fan doesn't want to continually watch games where we draw or lose and have 1 shot on goal. The recruitment needs to improve to but hopefully that gets rectified in January and the summer.

 

[blues exile]

You have a short memory. Just look back to the teams Kevin was forced to field at that time, no chance of winning games with the likes of Vilhete and Kabongolo up front. The team massively over achieved last season.

In point of fact, in that sequence of 5 defeats in 7 games Vilhete only featured twice and Kabogolo once plus 2 sub appearances so it's hardly fair to single them out as the reason for that dismal sequence.

 

[Shrimper4lifeCBS]

If you play Bridge wide right, who plays wide left?

Walker didn’t play ring wing for Daggers. He could play wide in a 3, but he is not a winger.

I would give Gus a go at RM, Wind RB(he’s a better defender)

 

[Shrimper4lifeCBS]

I would give Gus a go at RM, Wind RB(he’s a better defender)

You imagine all that attacking threat & overlapping from both wings! Actually thats far too much for Maher!! Safety first!! lol

 

[Cricko]

I would give Gus a go at RM, Wind RB(he’s a better defender)

Not sure about Gus but I am 100% sure the majority of the fan base would like a go at RM

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

Not sure about Gus but I am 100% sure the majority of the fan base would like a go at RM

That's all in the past J. The biggest disappointment for me was not being asked in for a cup of coffee. Then we could have refused to leave, and staged a sit in.

 

[ColinMorrisWalksOnWater]

About time for my 'appenth's worth.

I come from a position where I did and have left my vote as yes, after the abysmal performance at Altrincham, which as I said at the time was the final straw football wise for me in making that choice to vote.

Last Saturday, by all accounts, I'm glad I missed it. Looking at the stats, how we can muster just 1 attempt on target in 90 minutes is unforgiveable.

There are games where midfields rule and it's a battle to score. which is why making the most of opportunities that come our way is crucial and we simply don't! Why, because we haven't had the players that have that in their locker. Not just now, but for quite a few seasons. That's why I was fundamentally against Callum Powell in his time here. In a team creating few chances, seeing shots clear the bar by 10 ft or more repeatedly, is unforgiveable, nice bloke, (which he is), or not.

Whilst there have been improvements on the pitch and we had 4 points already on the board when the deduction hit last season, it was not at the start of the season before a ball was kicked, Kev had to re-adjust points targets, which he did, to hit the play offs and as we know, so nearly did. I give him and the football department much praise for that. It was a mighty achievement.

But, things don't seem to have moved on. We have been crying out for an attacking, creative midfielder since we have been down here and for all of Kev's tenure and we haven't got one. Moncur is not the answer and doesn't, sadly, seem to be that player that can pick a ball or create havoc and panic. Ball player, yes, killer ball player now in his career, apparently not.

KAF is another that seems to be that driving midfielder that can put opponents on the back foot, but is rarely given a chance. I fully accept we as fans, for the most part, do not see what goes on, on the training pitch, but we do see match days. This season there have been far too many games like Saturday just gone and not enough in the FGR game mould. Both draws, but look at the responses to both matches and they are like chalk and cheese.

I also Accept that if you don't concede you don't lose. I'd also add that if you are in that mode and do concede the harder it is to change the on the pitch mentality to get back into a game.

When I cast my vote and said I was a yes, I did add the caveat, that I was still then and am now willing to give Kev to the end of this season, especially with all the mentions of January to be the time when we would be bringing players in. That after all Kev has had to deal with is only fair imho. But if we are still pairing Cav and Noor in midfield come April/May and have found no improvement for the midfield, with this painfully slow predictable play at times , pass back instantaneously in both their cases the majority of times, without a look up, then that shows me the ability to take the squad forward isn't there.

Not to have options and use them for players that are misfiring this season such as Bridge, can't be held too harshly against Kev up until now or into Jan, where the opportunity to upgrade will be there for the first time in Kev's tenure here. After Jan it will be a different kettle of fish for me.

If that doesn't happen from Feb - May then for me time to re-think at least. Have the discussion in the close season, that these are the targets for 25-26 season. The division looks much the same without a standout in the offing coming up, although some familiar names such as Torquay and Scunthorpe could be back, but they are nothing that we haven't faced before. Those coming down will inevitably take time to re-adjust, such as Oldham, Pools andRochdale have. None thankfully in similar circumstances to ourselves, which was a one off case and again should be borne in mind that Kev and the football department navigated those times.

So, I am all for giving Kev time to use the window (for attracting EFL targets) and should have some money that he has never had before, but there must be improvement on the first half of the season. We are still in the Trophy, I would like us to take that seriously too. Get to the latter stages of that and you do bring unbudgeted funds into the club. (At least you do with COSU in charge and we know that will help their planned investments into the club).

So a D- minus, so far, not because I expected to be doing a Chesterfield, but I did expect to be top half on the edge of the play offs, with maybe a sprint finish at the end of the season. We could still do that, just miss and there will be a fair number of fans I bet, that will be in the "what if" camp. But I would see that as progress in COSUs first season holding the reigns for the majority of it.

I want to see a little bit more bravery and confidence on the pitch and other teams being forced back, not being able to sit back and repel us with ease as happens at the moment too often.

I will happily change my vote, as I still want the three amigos to take us back to the EFL, but this back half of the season is important for them, as they face some tough decisions, hopefully a little easier to make, as they have proper backing now, but tough and important none the less.

Play offs are still achievable this season, not a right, but achievable, it'll take a run of results for sure, but mirror Gateshead's league performance results wise in the back of the season and we would be in with a shout of play off's, particularly if we start beating some of those above us.

I'll be watching with interest and hoping to have my cursor moving towards that change vote button. But this is a pivotal time I feel for Kev.

 

[Kris]

You can’t say the football has improved though. The football was more enjoyable to watch under Ron most seasons (purely on the pitch)!

I could stomach boring football if we were grinding out wins but we aren’t even doing that. These games remind me of the start of our last season in league one. I’d rather we went for it and lost 4-3 than get a boring 0-0. It’s just depressing and makes people fall out of love with going.

In theory yes but I think you'd get bored of that scenario quite quickly, like when Spurs fans and board alike sacked Ossie Ardiles for playing too many forwards (five I think) and losing games they shouldn't have. Entertaining but with frustrating outcomes. Even the Netherlands, the champions of total football in the 1970s, didn't win anything, and the country's only success was in the 1988 Euros, when only eight teams took part.

It's about balance really. No team wins anything without a destroyer of some sort, such as Busquets for Spain and Barcelona, and Dunga for Brazil.

Though for what it's worth, I was tearing my hair out when we drew 0-0 three times in a row at home under Phil Brown!

 

[BoyWonder2]

I would give Gus a go at RM, Wind RB(he’s a better defender)

I’m glad Kev is in charge then.

As I’ve mentioned numerous times, GSM is not a right sided midfielder or right winger however people want to describe that position.

 

[Blues4LifeDan]

I’m glad Kev is in charge then.

As I’ve mentioned numerous times, GSM is not a right sided midfielder or right winger however people want to describe that position.

This is so weird because I was having this same conversation on the phone to my friend this morning on the way to work. He is a coach in schools and incidentally worked at Southend United community trust years ago.

I said to him how some fans are calling for certain players to switch to a different positions because of their stats but they aren't realising they got those stats because of the position they were currently playing in. I referenced Gus as a perfect example. He has got all those goals because of his late runs from RWB. He wouldn't be doing that from a RM or RW position. It's why Trent has never worked at a RW for Liverpool. The timings of the runs and the requirements are so different.

As you have stated, we don't have the players to play 4-3-3 on a consistent basis. It can work every now and then, when chasing the game like against FGR's and Charlton, but gaps opened up second half in those games due to the circumstances and how open it became. That wasn't the norm.

Also, starting the likes of Bonne wide right will never work either as he would need to do so much work going the other way. Look at Anthony Gordon, he works so hard going the other way. When fit, you wouldn't have Callum Wilson on the left as he wouldn't track back in the same manner. You have to have the right players that can play certain systems, we don't have that at the moment for it to be effective consistently.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

This is so weird because I was having this same conversation on the phone to my friend this morning on the way to work. He is a coach in schools and incidentally worked at Southend United community trust years ago.

I said to him how some fans are calling for certain players to switch to a different positions because of their stats but they aren't realising they got those stats because of the position they were currently playing in. I referenced Gus as a perfect example. He has got all those goals because of his late runs from RWB. He wouldn't be doing that from a RM or RW position. It's why Trent has never worked at a RW for Liverpool. The timings of the runs and the requirements are so different.

As you have stated, we don't have the players to play 4-3-3 on a consistent basis. It can work every now and then, when chasing the game like against FGR's and Charlton, but gaps opened up second half in those games due to the circumstances and how open it became. That wasn't the norm.

Also, starting the likes of Bonne wide right will never work either as he would need to do so much work going the other way. Look at Anthony Gordon, he works so hard going the other way. When fit, you wouldn't have Callum Wilson on the left as he wouldn't track back in the same manner. You have to have the right players that can play certain systems, we don't have that at the moment for it to be effective consistently.

I think it’s less the late runs and more how the opposition set up. If you play as a winger you’ll generally be picked up by a defender. If you play as a defender you’ll be generally be marked by an attacker who isn’t nearly as good at marking/defending and has to track back. It gives you a massive mismatch advantage.

Maherball was as much about exploiting this as anything: hence we’d defend from the front with Cardwell and Powell pressing defenders not comfortable on the ball; we built from the back with Kensdale initiating attacks when marked by forwards who weren’t as adept at stifling attacks as midfielders; we had a winger at wing-back in Bridge who had to be double-teamed and would pin opponents back.

I argued we were a back to front team whose defenders excelled in bringing the ball forward (Kensdale, Hobson) and whose forwards (Cardwell, Powell) excelled at pressing. We’ve now lost all those players and with it we’ve become more conventional with our players’ strengths matched up against opponents’ strength which has nullified us.

The question is do we try and return to that - in which case we need to find replacements for Kensdale and Cardwell - or do we try and find a new style?

 

[BoyWonder2]

This is so weird because I was having this same conversation on the phone to my friend this morning on the way to work. He is a coach in schools and incidentally worked at Southend United community trust years ago.

I said to him how some fans are calling for certain players to switch to a different positions because of their stats but they aren't realising they got those stats because of the position they were currently playing in. I referenced Gus as a perfect example. He has got all those goals because of his late runs from RWB. He wouldn't be doing that from a RM or RW position. It's why Trent has never worked at a RW for Liverpool. The timings of the runs and the requirements are so different.

As you have stated, we don't have the players to play 4-3-3 on a consistent basis. It can work every now and then, when chasing the game like against FGR's and Charlton, but gaps opened up second half in those games due to the circumstances and how open it became. That wasn't the norm.

Also, starting the likes of Bonne wide right will never work either as he would need to do so much work going the other way. Look at Anthony Gordon, he works so hard going the other way. When fit, you wouldn't have Callum Wilson on the left as he wouldn't track back in the same manner. You have to have the right players that can play certain systems, we don't have that at the moment for it to be effective consistently.

It was the same with Simon Francis.

People wanted him to play right wing, and the defensive side of his game left a lot to be desired, but was fantastic going forward and had a superb delivery. But he never worked out, it’s a lot easier coming from deep to beat a full back then it is one v one when you don’t have the skills or the blistering pace. Overlapping, he was superb.

Obviously then became a Premier League centre half and captain. Perhaps us fans don’t know what we are talking about most of the times and these coaches and managers actually do…

 

[wildheart]

I want Kevin to stay, but last Saturday was diabolical. I agree Monur has been a huge disappointment. Husin's form has fell off a cliff. Bridge is too predictable. Midfield is our problem, there's no creation. I like Morton and Coker but we lack a final ball. Walker & Pepple make loads of runs but we seem unable to find them? I hope on Boxing day the handbrake is taken off and we just go for it. If its another bore draw I fear for King Kevin.

 

[Leigh_Seasider]

I think it’s less the late runs and more how the opposition set up. If you play as a winger you’ll generally be picked up by a defender. If you play as a defender you’ll be generally be marked by an attacker who isn’t nearly as good at marking/defending and has to track back. It gives you a massive mismatch advantage.

Maherball was as much about exploiting this as anything: hence we’d defend from the front with Cardwell and Powell pressing defenders not comfortable on the ball; we built from the back with Kensdale initiating attacks when marked by forwards who weren’t as adept at stifling attacks as midfielders; we had a winger at wing-back in Bridge who had to be double-teamed and would pin opponents back.

I argued we were a back to front team whose defenders excelled in bringing the ball forward (Kensdale, Hobson) and whose forwards (Cardwell, Powell) excelled at pressing. We’ve now lost all those players and with it we’ve become more conventional with our players’ strengths matched up against opponents’ strength which has nullified us.

The question is do we try and return to that - in which case we need to find replacements for Kensdale and Cardwell - or do we try and find a new style?

To me, Kev's been trying to find something. He seems to be trying a few different combinations in defence, midfield and attack but none have really clicked into gear... well ... except for the 3-pronged attack of Walker-Pepple-Bonne vs FGR .. which he then started with at Woking til Cav got sent off. Maybe that put him off deploying it again?

As you say our high spots under Maher seemed to be when we used the high press & the interchanging on the LH side between Bridge/Ralph/Wes. Now Wes has gone, Bridge looks lost .. Kev has tried to address it with a few tweaks (Bridge CM, Ralph LWB, Husin LM - none have really worked).. we've got nobody else to step into that 'Wes' role.

Up top we are fine I feel .. Kendall has obviously been brought in for his pressing and aggression. That's what we've lacked losing Cards, but we still have to get the balance right elsewhere. Miley has been in and out and not nailed his spot like last season when he was probably the first name on the teamsheet.
Losing Kensdale was a pain as Crowther isn't quite there yet (can Golding be a stopgap?)

Morton and Coker have been 2 of our better players and it would be great if we could find a system that accommodated both (which means dropping Miley or Husin, is KM reluctant?). We played fantastically vs Charlton and FGR ... pace, aggression, urgency ... better opposition meaning people raising their game? If so it bodes well for York and does show it's in our locker. We just need to see more of it!