Stadium Update

[onceknownasrab]

A football club has an owner. Some owners are football through and through and love their club. Some buy a club as a plaything or for assumed status. Then there are those that see an opportunity, such as development, and they take it. I do not need to do a poll to know which of these categories the majority of you think RM is in.

It is of no consequence. Each owner is entitled to buy a club for whatever reasons he so desires. The chairman of Melton Mowbray Pork pies is a vegetarian so I doubt he is in the job for the love of the product.

I do not know whether the new stadium will be built or not. I believe it will. I do not know whether RM will continue to own the club after the development is done. Thats for his mind and his heart to decide. If he were to sell then thats his prerogative. Many owners, how ever much they love the club, find there is a time to relinquish control.

The bit I find curious is that the majority on here seem to believe that if FF is built RM will jump ship having got his 'pot of gold' retail park and screw the club mercilessly. Nobody seems to see any opportunity for the club to have new stewardship in a deal that works for both RM and the club.

For sure there are interesting times ahead and if RM stays at the helm at FF he may well get the opportunity to chair in calmer waters and appreciate the club and be appreciated. If he sells it may well be beneficial to him and not detrimental to the club.

Personally I believe he has a soft spot for the club and assumes the responsibility for its longevity and that goes in tandem with his own business aspirations. He may have had to juggle too many balls in an economy driven hurricane but at least he is still there trying. Yes some have been upset along the way but I do not believe that is his intention or that it does not concern him. I do feel he has pushed us closest to the move to a stadium that will make or break us whereas others in his place would have potentially seen us drown at RH.

There is no long queue of wannabe owners that have credibility or just like at other clubs they would have made their interest known. We may not appreciate all of the business practices that RM has been forced to adopt but in the long term we may appreciate how difficult it was to deliver on the new stadium and ends justify the means.

 

[Shrimpergonzo]

If the economic climate had improved rather than deteriorated, we'd be seeking to pay more? The council would be looking to demand more more ? No, neither of those things would be happening.

Overall a balanced view, Garry but I think comparisons with other clubs are possibly valid. I'm sure most new grounds/complexes had issues (Brighton's certainly did); they just had people better able to deal with them.

We wouldn't be seeking to pay more because we'd already have permission and no impediment to proceeding. At the moment I just don't think it stacks up and I think even the Council's own consultants alluded to this in their initial appraisal of our amendment. Although Ron moans that it wasn't approved in December he didn't really give them enough time to consider the new information and so I am not surprised they deferred it.

All big schemes are complicated, however I think what makes ours more complicated than Brighton's is that, although the Falmer site was probably equally (possibly more) complicated as Fossetts Farm, they were not redeveloping the Withdean at the same time as building a new ground. I think the Roots Hall scheme is particularly complicated because of the land ownership issues associated with it and also because the required phasing, caused by us needing to play somewhere throughout, makes the cash flow precarious. Brighton were only renting the Withdean and so, metaphorically, just handed back the keys when the Amex was ready.

 

[Jam_Man]

A football club has an owner. Some owners are football through and through and love their club. Some buy a club as a plaything or for assumed status. Then there are those that see an opportunity, such as development, and they take it. I do not need to do a poll to know which of these categories the majority of you think RM is in.

It is of no consequence. Each owner is entitled to buy a club for whatever reasons he so desires. The chairman of Melton Mowbray Pork pies is a vegetarian so I doubt he is in the job for the love of the product.

I do not know whether the new stadium will be built or not. I believe it will. I do not know whether RM will continue to own the club after the development is done. Thats for his mind and his heart to decide. If he were to sell then thats his prerogative. Many owners, how ever much they love the club, find there is a time to relinquish control.

The bit I find curious is that the majority on here seem to believe that if FF is built RM will jump ship having got his 'pot of gold' retail park and screw the club mercilessly. Nobody seems to see any opportunity for the club to have new stewardship in a deal that works for both RM and the club.

For sure there are interesting times ahead and if RM stays at the helm at FF he may well get the opportunity to chair in calmer waters and appreciate the club and be appreciated. If he sells it may well be beneficial to him and not detrimental to the club.

Personally I believe he has a soft spot for the club and assumes the responsibility for its longevity and that goes in tandem with his own business aspirations. He may have had to juggle too many balls in an economy driven hurricane but at least he is still there trying. Yes some have been upset along the way but I do not believe that is his intention or that it does not concern him. I do feel he has pushed us closest to the move to a stadium that will make or break us whereas others in his place would have potentially seen us drown at RH.

There is no long queue of wannabe owners that have credibility or just like at other clubs they would have made their interest known. We may not appreciate all of the business practices that RM has been forced to adopt but in the long term we may appreciate how difficult it was to deliver on the new stadium and ends justify the means.

Agree with the rest of what you had to say, but you cant state there are no other buyers simply because other clubs have had them make offers.

We are in a unique position, we are mid development where our owner is so much in debt he cant get out unless a buyer makes a massive offer.

Other clubs have offers because they are in a position where the club can be obtained for a reasonable amount, ours cant be.

When the stadium is complete the whole picture changes and if Ron Martin wants to leave he will get plenty of interest, if its when we only have 3 sides and a massive mess to resolve then that interest will be less.

 

[C C Csiders]

Time to chip in with my opinion - I'm not particularly pro- or anti- Ron and would just like to focus on the facts, not the personalties involved. I am a qualified property professional and have been involved in many complicated capital development schemes in my career over the last 20+ years, so hopefully look at this with a reasonably knowledgable eye.

Firstly it needs to be restated that this is a highly complicated development scheme, the big picture involves building a large stadium, a major food store, a retail park and some residential units on two different sites, one of which has an ancient monument on it. Therefore to say "Club X started around the same time and theres is built now.." is completely irrelevant as they may not have been under the same constraints as us. Added to this the fact that the developers do not yet have control over the whole site (i.e. Victoria Ave shops) means that we have also a complicated land assembly exercise, and also the fact that the club needs to keep playing throughout the development, meaning that the phasing is also critical (which will impact on cash flow).

Secondly the s.106 monies that we have to pay to the Council were determined in a slightly more favourable economic climate. It is not surprising therefore that when the numbers have been re-crunched recently that the development does not stack up anymore. There are a whole load of variables here - the shops on Victoria Ave want more for the land, retailers are being squeezed and so want to pay less rent - therefore something has got to give, unfortunately for SBC it is the amount of planning gain cash that they will receive.

I am not at all surprised that Ron is trying to negotiate this down, my guess is that he's gone in low (which I would do too) knowing that he'll have to give up something in the subsequent negotiations and they'll agree somewhere between the two figures at some point in the next couple of months.

My predictions are as follows:

• A revised s.106 planning gain sum will be agreed in Feb/Mar
• We will start on site in the summer
• the 3-sided ground will be completed at some point early in the 2014/15 season (not in time to start it)
• The 4th side will not be as big as originally planned or completed as early as planned
• Ron will walk away on completion leaving the club either with a big debt to him (which he will sell on) or with a rent to pay (his pension fund) - either of which could leave us with serious financial problems

I hope this is a balanced opinion, like most of you I can see trouble ahead but I can't see any way out of it and sticking with Ron seems to be the best plan in the short term as whilst he is still chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, he'll keep the club alive so we've got something to do on a Saturday afternoon instead of going shopping with the other half!

A bit harsh on Chris Barker, but I can see what you are getting at.

 

[Shrimpergonzo]

A bit harsh on Chris Barker, but I can see what you are getting at.

Don't you mean Neil Harris?!!! (although to be fair he rarely appears on the field of play!)

 

[londonblue]

However moving swiftly on...... the example I would use to illustrate the latest setback is rather that I buy a house three years ago at the top of the market. Three years on and I realise my house is now worth 20% less than I paid for it and I go to the vendors and ask them to refund the difference. It doesn't work like that in conveyancing or in the commercial world of business. If the financial markets had gone the other way how do you think RM (and many supporters) would have responded to a request from the Council to increase SUFC's contribution towards the development of the town centre?

That's not a particularly good example. In your example you're talking about a transaction that is done and dusted. The club's situation isn't yet in the past, therefore it is still time to try and renegotiate. The flip side of that, however, is that the counctil have the right to refuse...

 

[onceknownasrab]

Agree with the rest of what you had to say, but you cant state there are no other buyers simply because other clubs have had them make offers.

We are in a unique position, we are mid development where our owner is so much in debt he cant get out unless a buyer makes a massive offer.

Other clubs have offers because they are in a position where the club can be obtained for a reasonable amount, ours cant be.

When the stadium is complete the whole picture changes and if Ron Martin wants to leave he will get plenty of interest, if its when we only have 3 sides and a massive mess to resolve then that interest will be less.

Not disputing your version. What I am merely saying is the absence of voiced interest in buying the club lends more to the belief that there are no interested parties than the vain hope that someone wants to buy it but remains quiet.

When people are interested, other people know and it rarely remains a secret. I am not ruling out the possibility that someone would come in for the club now but lets face it, if they were serious contenders there has been nothing to stop them trying. In fact with the majority of fan support likely to be behind them now is the time to step up.

 

[Wise Head]

[*]A revised s.106 planning gain sum will be agreed in Feb/Mar
[*]We will start on site in the summer
[*]the 3-sided ground will be completed at some point early in the 2014/15 season (not in time to start it)
[*]The 4th side will not be as big as originally planned or completed as early as planned
[*]Ron will walk away on completion leaving the club either with a big debt to him (which he will sell on) or with a rent to pay (his pension fund) - either of which could leave us with serious financial problems
[/LIST]

I hope this is a balanced opinion, like most of you I can see trouble ahead but I can't see any way out of it and sticking with Ron seems to be the best plan in the short term as whilst he is still chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, he'll keep the club alive so we've got something to do on a Saturday afternoon instead of going shopping with the other half!

Excellent post and I feel that your above prediction is a good one. This is unlikely to be the last re-negotiation from Ron as he will try to keep the fourth side, retail park and flats ongoing, due to a lack of cash and significant interest being charged on his considerable borrowing. Ron's pot of gold will get smaller and smaller, which will leave little or nothing to help the club's financial position. While the club is in a dire state now financially, I fear that in 2 to 4 years time we will be sitting in a 3/4 sided stadium with limited revenue that belong to the club, no assets, 10 million + in debt and a large rent payable in excess of 500k per annum. The club will still be an unattractive proposition for anyone to take on as the fundamental economics of the club don't remotely stack up. To be attractive to any wealthy entrepreneur or consortium they need to have a decent main stand that can generate decent revenue streams , a ground that the club owns or a third party owns that does not charge a rent, and a realistic price tag that reflects what those are worth less the current debt at the club. Sadly we could be in an even bigger hole than we are now. All I hope for one day is that the primary consideration is about the club's healthy financial future, rather than being a pawn in the complex web of one person's group of companies/developments.

 

[londonblue]

FWIW, I'm in the "can't see it happening" camp. I do not profess to understand the arrangements that Ron has with the council and Sainsburys but, as far as I can see, he has neither the financial means or the diplomacy skills needed to make such an ambitious scheme happen. He has managed to alienate numerous stakeholders in the project and is now using the council as a smokescreen to buy himself some time. Our only saving grace is that Sainsburys will not want to be seen putting a football club out of business...the end result may be Southend playing at an alternative ground.

Bear in mind that Sainsburys are financing the 3 stands, so he does have the financial ability to build that, whether he can complete it is another thing.

He also managed to get the council on side when he took over from Vic, who had alienated the council to the point where they weren't talking to SUFC.

He certainly lacks the financial clout, but we knew that because he needed to borrow to finance the build. That is where one of the issues lie. If he didn't need to borrow then the recession wouldn't have made a blind bit of difference and we'd already be in our new stadium. The thing he lacks IMO (other than money) is not diplomacy skills, but negotiation skills. If he were better at that then I doubt we would have had such a long wait to agree deals with the various shops that needed buying up around Roots Hall. Are all of these signed up yet? Or are there still more to come? Will he be relying on CPOs, which really means he failed to agree a deal.

 

[Jam_Man]

Not disputing your version. What I am merely saying is the absence of voiced interest in buying the club lends more to the belief that there are no interested parties than the vain hope that someone wants to buy it but remains quiet.

When people are interested, other people know and it rarely remains a secret. I am not ruling out the possibility that someone would come in for the club now but lets face it, if they were serious contenders there has been nothing to stop them trying. In fact with the majority of fan support likely to be behind them now is the time to step up.

Theres 10 million reasons why someone wouldnt come in right now.

You rarely get vocal interest in buying clubs until the club is up for sale. Most clubs are bought when on their knees and often in administration and a fairly low offer can get ownership.
SUFC has a debt of 10 million that would have to be paid to get just the club, let alone the stadium.

No one is going to pay off that debt with the stadium going through (as its the stadium build/development that will hopefully resolve that debt).

Cant see any change of ownership happening until after the stadium is built.

 

[onceknownasrab]

Theres 10 million reasons why someone wouldnt come in right now.

You rarely get vocal interest in buying clubs until the club is up for sale. Most clubs are bought when on their knees and often in administration and a fairly low offer can get ownership.
SUFC has a debt of 10 million that would have to be paid to get just the club, let alone the stadium.

No one is going to pay off that debt with the stadium going through (as its the stadium build/development that will hopefully resolve that debt).

Cant see any change of ownership happening until after the stadium is built.

Totally agree. That is what I have been trying to say. It may be a prospect once built but not now so for all those who keep banging on about RM selling and creating polls they might as well accept matters and see how things turn out. I seriously doubt any knight in shining armour is around that will slay the Bouffant Dragon now and pick up the many pieces needed to move forward.

 

[leeblue]

Moving to the new ground could actually leave us in a big ***t hole, If ron decides to do one he will charge us rent, on top of the club trying to service 10 mill debt. Just a thought

 

[Jai]

Even when the whole thing is built and theoretically he washes his hands of us, it wouldn't be in his interests to put the squeeze on us. More successful = more fans = more footfall on Saturdays for his retail park. It would seriously damage trade on that site to have that stadium standing empty having ruined the football club.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Moving to the new ground could actually leave us in a big ***t hole, If ron decides to do one he will charge us rent, on top of the club trying to service 10 mill debt. Just a thought

Not moving to the new ground would also leave us in a big financial **** hole as we'd still be £10m in debt and would be charged rent.

 

[The General]

Good thread this and its taken 11 pages and there are still no "you are a ******" posts by anyone, just for airing an opinion.

Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

 

[onceknownasrab]

Good thread this and its taken 11 pages and there are still no "you are a ******" posts by anyone, just for airing an opinion.

Keep up the good work. :thumbsup:

TG "you are a ******". I presume the missing word is 'winner'.

 

[dodgeblue]

Oh I see. - but that would be somewhat self defeating on Ron's part wouldn't it ? - i.e. if planning permission expires/ is withdrawn. Bearing in mind how long it took to get in the first place?

I guess all interested parties are waiting to see who blinks first. I have to admit that I'd be furious if the Council acquiesce to any of Ron's demands without a strict timetable and definitive milestones (made public). Ironically that would ensure that the town and the club's interests (vs Ron's) are deemed paramount.

I'm not sure if this is the point you are trying to make but the truth is we no longer have planning permission as according to Ron's statement it hasn't been renewed.

 

[Beefy]

Moving to the new ground could actually leave us in a big ***t hole, If ron decides to do one he will charge us rent, on top of the club trying to service 10 mill debt. Just a thought

The club doesn't generate enough cash to pay rent. He can charge it but it isn't likely to get paid and Ron Martin will know that better than anyone.

 

[Brett Angle]

Telling people to 'wake up and smell the coffee' seems to against the above . Opinions are fine , statements like that scream 'I'm right your an idiot'' --- hence my reply to your post

You need to let this go ... I have.

You know absolutely nothing about me. If you did then you know in terms of 'arrogance' you couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[Brett Angle]

I'm not sure if this is the point you are trying to make but the truth is we no longer have planning permission as according to Ron's statement it hasn't been renewed.

As I said earlier if that is deifnitely the case then I hope the Council don't renew without securing a belts and braces agreement with Ron and Sainsburys in terms of timeline. I suspect I speak for the majority of supporters there.