religious

[Cricko]

They did , its called The Matrix ;)

Now that is a top answer...:clap::clap:

Fantastic Thread by the way.

 

[Reg Martin]

Logic just doesn't work with religion does it ?

I mean, we all say we are decended from Adam and Eve, don't we. yet there is the Flood mentioned in the OT which killed everything except those on the Ark, but you don't hear anyone say we are all descended from Noah.

Maybe because Noah was a descendant of Adam & Eve!

Just to pick yopu up on this the 5 books of the aposiles (those chosen remember recently Judas's book as been brought to light as well has evidence that Mary Magadline also had teachings ) each or believed to be written some where between 60-100 after the event .

Also the holy roman empire molded and formed the Christian idelolgy to fit its own (suplementing for instance mithras with Jesus and adding the Roman gods to fit the new). Jesus was easierly sellable to the average pion of a decaying roman empire.

Theres also theories to show that Jesus THE christ (christ is a title means messanger(and there were a good many Christis (greek Kristos light bringer as well at the time) was educated in Egypt as part of the Isian and Osrisi cults, along with after cruxifiction (which i should also point out is not a cross as we know it more a letter T or Tau shaped object ) left and wondered to Indian and beyound

/quote]

I am sure you're probably well aware that there are many alleged gospels though nearly all of them have been dated to the end of the 2nd century or even later. Most of them contradict another.
The four gospels included in the Bible are those that have been dated as the earliest all within 30-60 years of Christ's death.
They are also consistent with the letters of the early apsotles some of which date to within 20 years of Christ
Christianity did eventually become the official religion of the Roman Empire but it was initially persecuted it by Rome.
From what I've read about the connection between Christ and Mithras and other 'gods', is all pretty spurious and, for me, old story of people wanting to believe anything except the truth.
I've never really got the theory that Christianity is some conspiracy designed to brainwash the masses - it was spread initially by a small group of ordinary Jews who risked and usually suffered persecution and death to do so. Many Christians have concerns about 'the church' as an organisation as they have often been persecuted themselves by 'the church'. The problem with large church organisation is that in time they lose sight of their origianl purpose and begin to see prolonging the organisation's existence as their main purpose. The main reason I think for the church splits down the years and the proliferation of so many denominations is when Christains who wish to remain true to the Bible are left with no option but to leave an organisation that would rather compromise on the truth so that it can fit in with the 'modern world'.

 

[osymandus]

I am sure you're probably well aware that there are many alleged gospels though nearly all of them have been dated to the end of the 2nd century or even later. Most of them contradict another.

The four gospels included in the Bible are those that have been dated as the earliest all within 30-60 years of Christ's death.
They are also consistent with the letters of the early apsotles some of which date to within 20 years of Christ

Indeed, however your still looking at 2 things here
1) at the earliest 2 decades after the original source
2) Not writen by the original source , as well most likley editing on the part of either detragters or supporters

Christianity did eventually become the official religion of the Roman Empire but it was initially persecuted it by Rome.

Yup as was everything that was not "Roman" . ou dont toe teh party line we crush you


From what I've read about the connection between Christ and Mithras and other 'gods', is all pretty spurious and, for me, old story of people wanting to believe anything except the truth.

You may think its superious , however if youve read it the links between Dionios or Osiris or even Odin (dying and resurrecting dieities ) is symbolical very strong , never mind the almost direct links between Horus (the statues of the madonna with child for instance are near exact replicas of Isis with the child Horus, Solar phalic deity) and Mithras (mind you newer evidence on his worship shows he was most likley a "cosmic" force hearlding in the new ages (i.e why he slays the bull it is the end of teh age of Taurus .


I've never really got the theory that Christianity is some conspiracy designed to brainwash the masses - it was spread initially by a small group of ordinary Jews who risked and usually suffered persecution and death to do so. Many Christians have concerns about 'the church' as an organisation as they have often been persecuted themselves by 'the church'.

I've never said it was ;) , in rome it was a peoples relgion you didnt require wealth to communie with your "god" and it was a simple message . However historical it has been shown as a method by the out going Emprorers as an attempt to reseal the fracmenting empire , this is not Christianity fault


The problem with large church organisation is that in time they lose sight of their origianl purpose and begin to see prolonging the organisation's existence as their main purpose. The main reason I think for the church splits down the years and the proliferation of so many denominations is when Christains who wish to remain true to the Bible are left with no option but to leave an organisation that would rather compromise on the truth so that it can fit in with the 'modern world'.[/quote]

The orginal meaning of Church is simply a gathering of people . The orthodix splits have generaly been political sadly , and as the orthodxy became the ruling power of western europe it cuased very big issues.

 

[fredheim_holm]

after cruxifiction (which i should also point out is not a cross as we know it more a letter T or Tau shaped object ) left and wondered to Indian and beyound

Just skimming your post, noting that downfall. It's recorded that a spear was shoved into Jesus side and 'blood and water poured out'. In those days they didn't have scientific knowledge of what that meant, but when a water like substance comes out it's normally the sign of death. So he couldnt have just wandered to India.

 

[Reg Martin]

Some further thoughts on the Bible from a Christian perspective:

It is a love letter from God to Man
It is the story of a loving Father's search for his lost children - the parable of the prodigal son is a good a summary of the Bible message there is.

The Old Testament (OT) begins with Man living in harmony with God but Man choses to do his own thing.
The rest of the OT is about God trying to restore his relationship with Man - initially through Abraham and his descendants, the people of Israel.
But it is all pointing towards the need for a saviour to restore this relationship.
There are precursors of Christ in the OT - God asking Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac but then providing the sacrifice himself, the blood of the passover lamb daubed on the doors of Jewish households so that the destroying angel passes over them and does not kill their first-born as he does the Egyptians.
The OT laws given to Moses were partly for the circumstances the Jews found themselves in - ie the desert of Sinai for 40 years - and partly to separate their behave from that of the surrounding people and show what type of people God wants us to be.
Jesus who stated himself to be the fulfillment of the OT Laws & Prophets said all of the laws and commandments could be reduced to two:
- Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind
- Treat others as you would have them treat you.
It is not humanly possible to fulfill even these two 100% of the time whcih is why Jesus - the only person who did - was sacrificed on the cross for us - the ultimate Passover Lamb to cross ref back to the OT above - and raised back to life by his Father in heaven.
All we have to do - and anyone can do this - is accept this as the truth - as I said on an earlier post - what have you got to lose? Nothing IMO but eternity with God to gain.

I know saying all this will wind a lot of people up but the majority of stuff said on this thread has been from a non-Christian perspective thread (Fred's and ACU'S great contributions excepted) so this an attempt to redress the balance.

 

[fredheim_holm]

Fantastic Thread by the way.

Agreed! Enjoying having the intellectual debate if I'm honest.

 

[osymandus]

Just skimming your post, noting that downfall. It's recorded that a spear was shoved into Jesus side and 'blood and water poured out'. In those days they didn't have scientific knowledge of what that meant, but when a water like substance comes out it's normally the sign of death. So he couldnt have just wandered to India.

Not unless he rested for 3 days at least . Depends how deep and the constitution of the individual. And if it really happened theres no other contempory source to say it did other then the NT.

Scientific knowledge was about and the people of Judia had the Roman and greek medical practices of the time avaliable to them (as well as many other we would call homephaic remidies)


Plus Blood and water are symbolic of death and ressurection Nun is the Hebrew letter associated with the Death card in Tarot (the symbols are also fish , Egale and scorpian)
Mem is water and is associated with The hanged man (a cruxified man hanging from either a cross or tree ;) ) And resurrection.

 

[JoshC]

Just skimming your post, noting that downfall. It's recorded that a spear was shoved into Jesus side and 'blood and water poured out'. In those days they didn't have scientific knowledge of what that meant, but when a water like substance comes out it's normally the sign of death. So he couldnt have just wandered to India.

The man who revived himself from the dead could'nt even manage to walk to India because he was bleeding? give me a break.

 

[osymandus]

The man who revived himself from the dead could'nt even manage to walk to India because he was bleeding? give me a break.

Self inducded healing Comas with mandrake root are of course not metioned ;)

 

[JoshC]

Self inducded healing Comas with mandrake root are of course not metioned ;)

Couldn't he have gotten a lift to India from a talking snake...

 

[Firestorm]

All we have to do - and anyone can do this - is accept this as the truth - as I said on an earlier post - what have you got to lose? Nothing IMO but eternity with God to gain.

.

Does it work like that then ?
All I have to do is go Ok then you,ve convinced me its true. And thats it...no more going downstairs (if there is one ) when I die.....

I somehow think thats more than All we have to do Otherwise why are the elderly piling into church every Sunday trying to play catch-up as they have now realised their own immortality and are deperately trying to back date their insurance premiums

 

[Cricko]

Now we have no proof of a God..But what we feel within.........I don't think he has ever let me down....The one truth is LOVE,that is undeniable..

My favourite Words.

Footprints.

http://www.llerrah.com/footprints.htm

 

[osymandus]

The Lord ineffiable is only that which you have not percieved . But surrender to no one.
Do what thouh wilt shall be the whole of the law , love is the law love under will.

A little creed i memorised and accepted ;)
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/creed_egc.htm

 

[Cricko]

The Lord ineffiable is only that which you have not percieved . But surrender to no one.
Do what thouh wilt shall be the whole of the law , love is the law love under will.

A little creed i memorised and accepted ;)
http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/creed_egc.htm

*High Fives Ozy*...:clap:

"I believe in one secret and ineffable LORD; and in one Star in the company of Stars of whose fire we are created, and to which we shall return; and in one Father of Life, Mystery of Mystery, in His name CHAOS, the sole viceregent of the Sun upon Earth; and in one Air the nourisher of all that breaths.

 

[osymandus]

*High Fives Ozy*...:clap:

Cheers :D , its from a very lovely ritual if you ever get a chance to see it its well worth it ;) . And yes its part of my relgion ;)

 

[sufcintheprem]

All we have to do - and anyone can do this - is accept this as the truth - as I said on an earlier post - what have you got to lose? Nothing IMO but eternity with God to gain.

I strongly disagree with this. Depending on your stance, it could be tantamount to a person not leaving a cave to ensure that you don't get hit by meteors. If I think there is a 1 in a million chance of God existing, he wouldn't appreciate me gambling on those odds.

I know saying all this will wind a lot of people up but the majority of stuff said on this thread has been from a non-Christian perspective thread (Fred's and ACU'S great contributions excepted) so this an attempt to redress the balance.

It's far richer for the presence of a religious perspective.

 

[A Century United]

Does it work like that then ?
All I have to do is go Ok then you,ve convinced me its true. And thats it...no more going downstairs (if there is one ) when I die.....

I somehow think thats more than All we have to do Otherwise why are the elderly piling into church every Sunday trying to play catch-up as they have now realised their own immortality and are deperately trying to back date their insurance premiums

CF is quite right, Firestorm, it's all we HAVE to do. The rest (good works, but in faith not trying to buy redemtion), Church Rituals, everything that we have added on is NOT neccesary. Just because some people don't understand this and are busy trying to earn their passage doesn't make it false. What did Jesus say to the man nailed up beside him? - "tonight you will be with me in Heaven" yet the man, who admitted that he was there because he deserved it, didn't have time to do anything but turn to Jesus and say "Lord remember me", one of the great statements of belief.

Christianity is the only religion where God says "It's all done for you - because you can't manage it however hard you try, I have done if for you if you will only accept that gift." All other religions involve a balancing of scales, with the promise that the more "good deeds" you do, the more likely you are to reach heaven. This is what leads to suicide bombers, who are convinced that they are taking a short-cut to paradise. A Christian who truly understands Jesus' message would know that that won't work for him.

 

[osymandus]

Couldn't he have gotten a lift to India from a talking snake...

Naga taxi service, one to India please !

 

[osymandus]

Christianity is the only religion where God says "It's all done for you - because you can't manage it however hard you try, I have done if for you if you will only accept that gift." All other religions involve a balancing of scales, with the promise that the more "good deeds" you do, the more likely you are to reach heaven. This is what leads to suicide bombers, who are convinced that they are taking a short-cut to paradise. A Christian who truly understands Jesus' message would know that that won't work for him.

Noooo no no , Christianity has the weight of your sins dear sir. Yes Islam also has a sin system , but if your talking about say Kama (in hinduism ) thats teh consequences of your actions when you choose to work it off or abandon the illusion of relaity (maya as its called ) . Buddhism for isnatnce (a philosphy where you do it yourself ) is mearly the abandonment of self into the all no work or points sytem there (though some use Karma ).

The weighing of sins seems to come from the Egyptian death rite where Thoth weighed your heart against that of a vulture feather (his wife Maat Goddess of Justice), and that was based on how you had lived in accourdance with your own heart and deeds .

I disagree strongly you abandon your own enlgihtemment to someone else ideals , you find the one that works for you , question everything . If Gods or Godess exist they not going to mind you asking a few questions .

 

[Firestorm]

CF is quite right, Firestorm, it's all we HAVE to do. The rest (good works, but in faith not trying to buy redemtion), Church Rituals, everything that we have added on is NOT neccesary. Just because some people don't understand this and are busy trying to earn their passage doesn't make it false.

I presume this notion of "the quick fix" is not widely publicised within the Church as it would seriously effect attendances across the country and would therefore have a knock on effect regarding fundraising and collections. Thus undermining the wealth af the Church and its position as a substantial Landowner in this country.