Orient Match Thoughts

[Jam_Man]

not at all. i would much rather win with a clean goal. diving is an aspect of football that really gets up my back. i don't like to see any player do it. southend or anyone. theres no need for it and it ruins the game.
especially as refs fall for it every time

Define diving ?

I class diving when a player dives to the ground when there has been no contact.

When Thornton went down for the free kick Maher had kicked him.

 

[Xàbia Shrimper]

matter of time before you butted in

This is a public forum so that's no surprise.

There seems to be a worrying trend to accuse fans who don't "toe the party line" of supporting the other team in this debate - without doubt from the younger members of this forum. RC doesn't follow the "cheating *******" mentality of some and he is accused of being an Orient supporter. Such immaturity breaks down serious debate into a slanging match.

I would wager that most fans would be thrilled to see Thornton in the blue shirt of Southend United; he certainly demonstrated a will to win the game ...

 

[Tofu Blue]

Thorton won Orient the match? Definitely. Thorton was the best player on the pitch? No way, but was certainly the most negative.

Personally, while I want the Blues to win every match we play, I would rather win with a sublime piece of football, like our first goal, than a slime piece of football, like borients first and Thorton's various other 'contributions'.

I thought the Blues had the best of a pretty poor, but typical, mockney derby. The lads seemed lacking in confidence - typified by the misplaced passes and poor descion-making at times; but there were patches of play where borient couldnt get near the ball.

For me the problem wasnt really with the front two (though I think Harrold is way out of his depth), but the link-up play between strikers and rest of team. Far too many lumps to the big red (ginger) target who hasnt got the ability to hold off a man and play others in, or hopeful balls to the corners for Hoops/JCR to chase. Was this Tillys much touted wing plan?

When we played short and pass/move we looked good - and we have the ability in the team to do this - but to me the confidence is not there. Perhaps not surprising given last season.

IMHO, the boy Barrett was head and shoulders the best player on the pitch - composed, accurate passing and tireless in heading/tackling. He even became the libero on our switch to 3-5-1 in the second half (and what the hell was that about tilly???)

My ratings:

Flava Flavs - 6 out of 10 - great shot-stop at start of game, but seemed dodgy positioning for both goals and please no more attempts at punching the ball.

Che - 6 - dodgy distribution but tried hard. Bless.

Barrett - 9 - calmness personified. Never rattled. Quality.

Clarkey - 7 - combative but too much lumping. (tho wish he laid one on Thronton)

Gilbert - 7 - quietly efficient, improved as game went on.

JCR - 6 - will probably be signed up for man city if they watched his part in the first goal; sven wouldve been less impressed with his need to beat a man eight times and the ineffective crossing.
Macca - 5 - for being conned by the **** Thornton:thump: otherwise good hardman display

Capn Kev - 8 - poor first part of the match, but got fired up by Thorntons incessant grass kissing and, after booking, started to ping the ball about well. Central to any passing/wing game of Tillys.

Gower - 6 - he scored on the end of the move of the match and maybe early goal of the season candidate. But failed to get into the game and along with JCR was poor defensively.

Harrold - 5 - simply a human target for long ball; some nice control but no end product. Ploughed the same old furrow all match without change. Lack of intelligence?

Hoops - 5- willing to run, but never brought into match by team-mates. Again has he got the ability or nous to make the ball work for him?

 

[Andy_S]

Kerrea, get some new boots eh? I thought he was great today, but wh oh why did he keep losing his footing. It was almost like he was too quick for his own feet at times.

Right, here is a the place to have a little moan.

Tilly, once again fecked up with substitutions. As I've already said in another thread, I feel he should've taken McCormack off before the inevitable happened. But, the other subs did not help us whatsoever. It was a scorching day, we were down to 10 men, yet we don't bring on fresh legs. It made no sense. Gower was knackered after 60 mins, yet we keep him on until the 84th minute before bringing Black on. Leaving it till injury time to bring MacDonald on was even worse. We needed freshening up but once again Tilson did not have the guts to make the changes, instead he went with the leave it as late as possible strategy as per last season. Make subs earlier please, Tilly. You must hear the criticism that you are now getting from around the dugout, it is not just the odd person who is thinking it now.

 

[Desert Shrimper]

if we can sort out the little things then top 6 here we come!

Yep, change the defence, get some decent strikers, get the team playing as it did two seasons ago and Robert's your father's brother - we're back in business! A piece of p1ss! :fart:

 

[Medway Blue]

Kerrea, get some new boots eh? I thought he was great today, but wh oh why did he keep losing his footing. It was almost like he was too quick for his own feet at times.

Right, here is a the place to have a little moan.

Tilly, once again fecked up with substitutions. As I've already said in another thread, I feel he should've taken McCormack off before the inevitable happened. But, the other subs did not help us whatsoever. It was a scorching day, we were down to 10 men, yet we don't bring on fresh legs. It made no sense. Gower was knackered after 60 mins, yet we keep him on until the 84th minute before bringing Black on. Leaving it till injury time to bring MacDonald on was even worse. We needed freshening up but once again Tilson did not have the guts to make the changes, instead he went with the leave it as late as possible strategy as per last season. Make subs earlier please, Tilly. You must hear the criticism that you are now getting from around the dugout, it is not just the odd person who is thinking it now.

The problem is Tilly is supersticious, and one of his supersticions is, I hear, not to make any changes before 75mins. In my view, supersticions such as these have no place in football when you're managing a team and I hope these don't hamper any chances we have.

 

[turkishm]

If we want a say in this season, then some hard decisions have to be made.Flavs has to go, Clarke has to be cut adrift,he makes to many mistakes. Maher has to learn that holding player means holding for christ sake. At the moment we have goal scorers who cant score and defenders who cant defend. Os are not the best team we will be playing this season, by a country mile. What happens when we play top sides in this div. Im sorry to be negative,but really some of you live in a dream world,about us going up.

 

[Medway Blue]

I don't think we have a divine right or destiny to go up this season, but our team is nowhere near as bad as you are making out to be. That is pessimism and a lack of faith of the most extensive kind.

 

[mattytheshrimper]

if that supersticious thing is true then that is total crap. i always think you need to give the subs more time than he does. which is usually about 5-10 mins. otherwise how can they change the game and get a few goals? just seems stupid.

 

[Southendsleeper]

That is pessimism and a lack of faith of the most extensive kind.

Better get used to it

Post match we're blaming Harrold for not being able to win the game on his own up front, we're blaming JCR who was man marked by 2 people for most of the match with Thornton as cover, we're blaming Maher because he's been at the club for over 10 years, we're blaming Daryl because he's short, we're blaming Che for being crap, and we're blaming McCormack for disciplinary problems. Oh and Tilly for for late subs (but that one is justified)

And this is game one

 

[Desert Shrimper]

The problem is Tilly is supersticious, and one of his supersticions is, I hear, not to make any changes before 75mins. In my view, supersticions such as these have no place in football when you're managing a team and I hope these don't hamper any chances we have.

Yes, for the past couple of seasons he's had the superstition of playing ****ty League 2 strikers who have as much chance of scoring as Rick Waller has in TALK. He also has the superstition that when your team leaks 80 goals and scores the square root of **** all you should ON NO ACCOUNT make wholesale changes, even if your very best player leaves. Sticking with anything other than the **** that got you releagted while adding a sprinkling of non-league hopefuls and kids would be wrong and bring you terrible luck.

To date I think it all seems to be going to the script. :fury:

 

[Desert Shrimper]

Better get used to it

Post match we're blaming Harrold for not being able to win the game on his own up front, we're blaming JCR who was man marked by 2 people for most of the match with Thornton as cover, we're blaming Maher because he's been at the club for over 10 years, we're blaming Daryl because he's short, we're blaming Che for being crap, and we're blaming McCormack for disciplinary problems. Oh and Tilly for for late subs (but that one is justified)

And this is game one

Yes mate and this is a message board and not the same as shouting abuse at the players so drop the smug, holier-than-thou tones. The fact is we have a right to be disappointed that we have gone back to being an average team who gets beaten by Leyton Orient twice a season when it wasn't so long ago we had it all in the palm of our hands. We're dropping the ball as we speak so excuse us for not being happy clappy Super Fans, this is reality check time. We bought a load of cr@p last season and persisting with it and hoping it will turn into solid football gold is laughable and will lead us only in the direction of a relegation battle. You cannot polish a ****.

 

[Kestrel]

You cannot polish a ****.

rubbish

i've got a joke plastic dog stool which has pride of place on my mantlepiece and comes up gleaming after a squirt of Mr Sheen

 

[Medway Blue]

rubbish

i've got a joke plastic dog stool which has pride of place on my mantlepiece and comes up gleaming after a squirt of Mr Sheen

Mr. Sheen? Pffft. Mr. Muscle all the way son.

 

[Southendsleeper]

Yes mate and this is a message board and not the same as shouting abuse at the players so drop the smug, holier-than-thou tones

Wasnt being holier than thou at all, and yes I am well aware its a message board. But it is only the first game. Wholesale changes to the team, and going into a mad panic isnt going to help.

The ref had to have a large part in what happened to day, some of his decisions were astonishing to say the least. He seemed to lose control of the game round the time of the sending off. Thornton dived, made the most of tackles, (the one that earned him the freekick from which the goal came from was shocking) and proceeded to needle players and seemed to try to get players sent off, hence Maher's reaction at the end of the match when he refused to shake Thorntons hand.

We created chances but didnt put them away. But theres a long way to go yet, and it wasnt a complete capitulation like Col U last season.

 

[Medway Blue]

Today has not waranted the reaction it got from some people. It's not the end of the world, and my word, we've seen much much worse. That's not saying today was particularly good, but I count numerous times when the performance and outlook has been far worse. We have countless options due to our strength in depth and I imagine that we'll have a new striker in within 2 weeks. I still say, although I don't directly fancy us promotion, that we have the basis at least to be 'in the mix' come May.

 

[Jonny_Stokes]

As ever, I shall be as fair and objective as I can....and to put it bluntly we were lucky to win.

The (poor) quality of the game as a whole was to be expected, I guess, what with it being a local derby, in hot conditions and plenty of new faces, especially in our side. Still, I was expecting more from Southend at least.

That said, I thought you dominated the first half without actually creating enough clear-cut chances. JCR tortured young Aiden Palmer in the opening half an hour, but still can't find any consistency on his crossing (more on JCR later). Kevin Maher - abysmal two-footed challenge aside - was running the show and our relatively-vaunted midfield were way, way off the pace.

The goal itself was a joy to behold from a neutral point of view; a swift counter-attack, expert cross and neat finish. Pity I wasn't a neutral or I might have appreciated it (and accompanying text - yes, you know who you are :fury: ) a bit more. Best thing about it was that it sparked the atmosphere in the ground up a for five minutes. I thought it was pretty flat for the most part pre-Thorntongate, even in the away end.

The 'foul' that lead to our equaliser I can't comment on (completely the wrong angle to judge it one way or another). But hell, how any of you can chastise Flahaven for conceding a quality freekick like that is beyond me. It was the only bit of class we showed all half to be honest, and we didn't deserve to be on level terms at the break. The only surprise is that it wasn't a goalless state of parity - the four centre backs had the strikers so far in their pockets it was untrue.

I thought we shaded - shaded, nothing more - the first 20 of the second half without ever looking threatening. There was a clear lack of understanding and fitness throughout the side. As for Southend, I thought you started playing too long. It suits us to be a bit more direct with the pace we've got to work the channels, but you don't have the luxury of that option and i was surprised you got sucked into playing that way. One thing it did do was render JCR much more ineffective, for which we breathed a sigh of relief.

Then came Thorntongate.

I've got to admit, Thornton performed far better than I thought he was going to. He controlled the tempo of the game in the second half, and his defensive workrate was above and beyond my expectations. And that free kick. Wow...! But then there was his other 'performance'.

I can't say I like players that go over too easily - I ****ing hated Tudor for that very reason - and I wasn't too impressed with Sean's role in the whole episode. He went over very, very easily and then he appeared to strike out at a Southend player whilst he was on the floor. Unsavoury stuff, and not something I condone. It took a lot of the shine off what was an excellent debut.

That said, McCormack shouldn't have lunged in the way he did; Thornton is a cracking player, and was looking to draw fouls all game. It was a stupid, stupid challenge from McCormack, especially as he was on a booking and had a **** of a referee that was simply itching to get his red card out to say "I'm back!". That said, I maintain he shouldn't have gone; a stern, final warning would have sufficed.

(On a tangent, I'd be interested to see how many fouls Kevin Maher actually committed. I thought it was double figures, and considering he put in the worst tackle of the game to get his booking, I thought he was lucky to stay on the pitch.)

Following the sending off, I was really, really disappointed with us. Strangely, it was the only time in the game where Southend really looked dangerous; I was convinced you were going to score to be honest, as our attacking play was laborious, and JCR was buzzing about again. Boyd and Gray both had absolutely crap efforts on goal, and I would have happily settled for a point at that juncture.

The game was won (and lost) on the substitutions. Tilson could well have taken McCormack off before he got sent off, and I was very surprised when he brought on Bailey for Hooper and went one up front. It left you a target man with no-one to play off of him, and it allowed us to put on the pressure that we didn't previously look like we were going to apply, as it was all too easy to get the ball back.

In contrast, when Orient go down to 10 men at home, Ling always leaves two up front to carry the goal threat, and improve ball-retention. I think if Southend had done that, the game may well have ended up differently. That said, credit to Ling, firstly for dragging Corden off at the right moment (post-booking when he was blowing out of his ****) and introduced Echanomi against that tiring, slow defence (your ovation for Wayne Gray was much appreciated, by the way).

I remember saying that Efe was quick in the preview, but **** me he absolutely roasted Gilbert for pace despite being 10 yeards behind to start with, so I'm not surprised he caused so may problems. Good run for the goal, but it must be said that the attack only came from a mistake - our creativity really was pee-poor.

So yeah, on balance of play a draw would have been the right result. Neither team created much in the way of clear cut-chances; there was a lot in the way of effort, and little in the way of quality. Plus we both had that **** Knight to cope with. Either way, I think both sides will improve as the season goes on.

Orient need to gel - we have the makings of a decent League One outfit with a few - Chambers, Mkindawire, Boyd, Thornton (booooo! ;)) - quality players. Hopefully our 'underdogs' tag will last for some while yet, and we'll keep catching more fancied sides on the hop.

Southend, on the other hand, just desperately need something different up front. Not necessarily a 20-goal-a-season-Eastwood-clone, which, although wonderful to have are extremely difficult to come by in League One... but someone who isn't a lumbering target man (Harrold, Paynter), or a slow link striker (Hooper, Bradbury), which is why I'll say (yet again) that JCR should be up front. Now you've got Black and Gower to work the flanks, JCR could be pushed forward to give you some pace up top. He played extremely well there for Orient, and I think he'd give you a new dimension. Plus you wouldn't have to put up with his godawful crossing... ;)

ATB,

J_S :)

 

[Leighite]

As ever, I shall be as fair and objective as I can....and to put it bluntly we were lucky to win.

The (poor) quality of the game as a whole was to be expected, I guess, what with it being a local derby, in hot conditions and plenty of new faces, especially in our side. Still, I was expecting more from Southend at least.

That said, I thought you dominated the first half without actually creating enough clear-cut chances. JCR tortured young Aiden Palmer in the opening half an hour, but still can't find any consistency on his crossing (more on JCR later). Kevin Maher - abysmal two-footed challenge aside - was running the show and our relatively-vaunted midfield were way, way off the pace.

The goal itself was a joy to behold from a neutral point of view; a swift counter-attack, expert cross and neat finish. Pity I wasn't a neutral or I might have appreciated it (and accompanying text - yes, you know who you are :fury: ) a bit more. Best thing about it was that it sparked the atmosphere in the ground up a for five minutes. I thought it was pretty flat for the most part pre-Thorntongate, even in the away end.

The 'foul' that lead to our equaliser I can't comment on (completely the wrong angle to judge it one way or another). But hell, how any of you can chastise Flahaven for conceding a quality freekick like that is beyond me. It was the only bit of class we showed all half to be honest, and we didn't deserve to be on level terms at the break. The only surprise is that it wasn't a goalless state of parity - the four centre backs had the strikers so far in their pockets it was untrue.

I thought we shaded - shaded, nothing more - the first 20 of the second half without ever looking threatening. There was a clear lack of understanding and fitness throughout the side. As for Southend, I thought you started playing too long. It suits us to be a bit more direct with the pace we've got to work the channels, but you don't have the luxury of that option and i was surprised you got sucked into playing that way. One thing it did do was render JCR much more ineffective, for which we breathed a sigh of relief.

Then came Thorntongate.

I've got to admit, Thornton performed far better than I thought he was going to. He controlled the tempo of the game in the second half, and his defensive workrate was above and beyond my expectations. And that free kick. Wow...! But then there was his other 'performance'.

I can't say I like players that go over too easily - I ****ing hated Tudor for that very reason - and I wasn't too impressed with Sean's role in the whole episode. He went over very, very easily and then he appeared to strike out at a Southend player whilst he was on the floor. Unsavoury stuff, and not something I condone. It took a lot of the shine off what was an excellent debut.

That said, McCormack shouldn't have lunged in the way he did; Thornton is a cracking player, and was looking to draw fouls all game. It was a stupid, stupid challenge from McCormack, especially as he was on a booking and had a **** of a referee that was simply itching to get his red card out to say "I'm back!". That said, I maintain he shouldn't have gone; a stern, final warning would have sufficed.

(On a tangent, I'd be interested to see how many fouls Kevin Maher actually committed. I thought it was double figures, and considering he put in the worst tackle of the game to get his booking, I thought he was lucky to stay on the pitch.)

Following the sending off, I was really, really disappointed with us. Strangely, it was the only time in the game where Southend really looked dangerous; I was convinced you were going to score to be honest, as our attacking play was laborious, and JCR was buzzing about again. Boyd and Gray both had absolutely crap efforts on goal, and I would have happily settled for a point at that juncture.

The game was won (and lost) on the substitutions. Tilson could well have taken McCormack off before he got sent off, and I was very surprised when he brought on Bailey for Hooper and went one up front. It left you a target man with no-one to play off of him, and it allowed us to put on the pressure that we didn't previously look like we were going to apply, as it was all too easy to get the ball back.

In contrast, when Orient go down to 10 men at home, Ling always leaves two up front to carry the goal threat, and improve ball-retention. I think if Southend had done that, the game may well have ended up differently. That said, credit to Ling, firstly for dragging Corden off at the right moment (post-booking when he was blowing out of his ****) and introduced Echanomi against that tiring, slow defence (your ovation for Wayne Gray was much appreciated, by the way).

I remember saying that Efe was quick in the preview, but **** me he absolutely roasted Gilbert for pace despite being 10 yeards behind to start with, so I'm not surprised he caused so may problems. Good run for the goal, but it must be said that the attack only came from a mistake - our creativity really was pee-poor.

So yeah, on balance of play a draw would have been the right result. Neither team created much in the way of clear cut-chances; there was a lot in the way of effort, and little in the way of quality. Plus we both had that **** Knight to cope with. Either way, I think both sides will improve as the season goes on.

Orient need to gel - we have the makings of a decent League One outfit with a few - Chambers, Mkindawire, Boyd, Thornton (booooo! ;)) - quality players. Hopefully our 'underdogs' tag will last for some while yet, and we'll keep catching more fancied sides on the hop.

Southend, on the other hand, just desperately need something different up front. Not necessarily a 20-goal-a-season-Eastwood-clone, which, although wonderful to have are extremely difficult to come by in League One... but someone who isn't a lumbering target man (Harrold, Paynter), or a slow link striker (Hooper, Bradbury), which is why I'll say (yet again) that JCR should be up front. Now you've got Black and Gower to work the flanks, JCR could be pushed forward to give you some pace up top. He played extremely well there for Orient, and I think he'd give you a new dimension. Plus you wouldn't have to put up with his godawful crossing... ;)

ATB,

J_S :)

JS we were awful, we could see you getting stronger as the match drew to a conclusion. Thornton is a good player and our players got sucked in by his theatrics. Their fault and maybe the ref's for not realising it. You deserved to win, well done. But it's a long season.

 

[Jonny_Stokes]

JS we were awful, we could see you getting stronger as the match drew to a conclusion... ...You deserved to win, well done.

Well, it's nice of you to say so :) But I'm treating this as 3 points closer to 52 and we'll go from there, nothing more. I wasn't hugely impressed with us, and we've got plenty of improving to do, methinks.

 

[Leighite]

Well, it's nice of you to say so :) But I'm treating this as 3 points closer to 52 and we'll go from there, nothing more. I wasn't hugely impressed with us, and we've got plenty of improving to do, methinks.

Tilly did his usual ploy, we go down to 10 men and he tries to settle for a draw. Sometimes it is astute but today Black could have done something if he had come on earlier. With a completely (almost) new team you did well today. We're just sick as it is no different to last season. It can only get better :(