Latest Fossets Farm developments

[londonblue]

I believe Ron or Martin Dawn built the Essex University Building where the old Odeon was in Southend High Street, that was quite a few years ago now.

More recently there was a Martin Dawn development board up along Kiln Road, but when development work started the board came down and Redrow Homes sign went up in its place.

British Land are currently building a new Nandos at Mayflower Retail Park in Basildon.

From what I've been told RM didn't build the university. He gained planning permission and sold. Someone else was responsible for the build...much like Kiln Road it seems.

 

[rigsby]

From what I've been told RM didn't build the university. He gained planning permission and sold. Someone else was responsible for the build...much like Kiln Road it seems.

Will be the same with FF and the retail park. BL will be the builders, what's the problem with that.

 

[Benfleet A1]

I am increasingly convinced that the survival of our Club depends upon one of Ron walking away altogether (we know this is never going to happen), or massively reducing the unecessary pomp and ceremony surrounding the FF proposals.

Get rid of the raft of big-name, expensive consultants, trophy architects etc. and strip the project brief back to the basics.

The sale of Roots Hall to a third party developer would enable the construction of a hybrid stadium on the FF site similar to that delivered by LOU Rugby Club in Lyon, France, with no additional funding - check out the photos and specs online - Matmut Stadium, Lyon.

This project example is unique across Europe in that the entire stadium development, corporate hospitality and non-matchday functions were delivered using a fusion of temporary/modular and traditional construction methods (a good example being the stands which feature temporary seating structures, shrouded with a permanent cantilevered roof, thus reducing the contruction time and cost both in the ground, and in structural terms).

The stadium was designed and built by my previous company, GL Events - it features 8,000 seats and various semi-permanent marquee-type structures to serve the non-matchday functions. It was built in little over 3 months, and cost a small fraction of what an identikit Shrewbsury/Colchester style 10,000 capacity stadium cost to build.

This would also give the Club plenty of useful publicity, as it would be the first development of it's kind in the UK.

This would certainly be the way I would go if I had any involvement in a supporter/trust-run Club.

I took a look at Lyon RFU and was quite impressed. Can those types of stadia be built with enclosed corners?

 

[londonblue]

Will be the same with FF and the retail park. BL will be the builders, what's the problem with that.

I think you've missed the point...again.

 

[rigsby]

I think you've missed the point...again.

Once again its you that has taken the point personally. I was making a general point about the term 'property developer'.

You need to get over yourself.

 

[londonblue]

Once again its you that has taken the point personally. I was making a general point about the term 'property developer'.

You need to get over yourself.

Either that or you haven't read the whole post.

 

[Sherif H]

I took a look at Lyon RFU and was quite impressed. Can those types of stadia be built with enclosed corners?

Indeed they can, although the steel work required to incorporate corner splays (to create a true bowl) require some fairly bespoke steel sections.

We did this (on a temporary basis) at the basketball arena on London 2012.

 

[Sherif H]

Will be the same with FF and the retail park. BL will be the builders, what's the problem with that.

Just to be clear, it won't be the same. On the examples mentioned, Ron's intention would have been to purchase sites without planning permission, take the design through planning to conditional approval, and then sell to the highest bidder - sure fire way to make a quick buck in a decent market.
In the instance of FF, British Land and Ron are development partners - how the financial burden and subsequent profits are to be split is another matter.

 

[rigsby]

Just to be clear, it won't be the same. On the examples mentioned, Ron's intention would have been to purchase sites without planning permission, take the design through planning to conditional approval, and then sell to the highest bidder - sure fire way to make a quick buck in a decent market.
In the instance of FF, British Land and Ron are development partners - how the financial burden and subsequent profits are to be split is another matter.

I don't know Ron's history of development but what difference will it make, whether Ron has never built any of his developments or not. As long as he has a decent firm on board, which BL seemed to be, I don't see a problem He still does have the option of selling the club once he gets the new scheme approved.

Any developer has the option of selling a site once planning has been granted. Or he may think there's more money to be made by finishing the whole project. Same all over the world, what is the problem.

If its so easy to make money at development, why doesn't everyone do it.

 

[RHB]

I don't know Ron's history of development but what difference will it make, whether Ron has never built any of his developments or not. As long as he has a decent firm on board, which BL seemed to be, I don't see a problem He still does have the option of selling the club once he gets the new scheme approved.

Any developer has the option of selling a site once planning has been granted. Or he may think there's more money to be made by finishing the whole project. Same all over the world, what is the problem.

If its so easy to make money at development, why doesn't everyone do it.

I would settle for Ron taking this project to the point where he has to make a choice. We really do need some degree of certainty in all of this.

 

[londonblue]

I don't know Ron's history of development but what difference will it make, whether Ron has never built any of his developments or not. As long as he has a decent firm on board, which BL seemed to be, I don't see a problem He still does have the option of selling the club once he gets the new scheme approved.

Any developer has the option of selling a site once planning has been granted. Or he may think there's more money to be made by finishing the whole project. Same all over the world, what is the problem.

If its so easy to make money at development, why doesn't everyone do it.

This comes back to the point I was making. That is mostly the reason why it has taken so long to get nowhere. However, as I also stated, now BL are involved I still have hope. I simply can't see them taking any longer then they have to as they won't want their capital tied up.

The problem with RM (pre-BL) is that he has never built anything, he has always sold before the build, so he's had extremely little experience of actually having to finance and build. He can blame the recession (and to be fair he has a point) but he should also look closer to home. I've been told stories of how he simply failed to negotiate with various people who then bypassed him and went to Sainsbury's instead, and had a deal done in weeks.

He simply doesn't know how to build.

 

[londonblue]

I would settle for Ron taking this project to the point where he has to make a choice. We really do need some degree of certainty in all of this.

I believe (although I may be wrong) that RM has stated that the retail complex is basically his pension. If that is the case he won't walk away pre-build unless someone offers him a huge amount of money.

 

[Sherif H]

I don't know Ron's history of development but what difference will it make, whether Ron has never built any of his developments or not. As long as he has a decent firm on board, which BL seemed to be, I don't see a problem He still does have the option of selling the club once he gets the new scheme approved.

Any developer has the option of selling a site once planning has been granted. Or he may think there's more money to be made by finishing the whole project. Same all over the world, what is the problem.

If its so easy to make money at development, why doesn't everyone do it.

You have misunderstood the point. The previous poster was asking why Ron never seemed to build anything...my response justifies his approach.
Also, British Land is a developer just like Ron - they are not a contractor (ergo, they do not physically build anything), hence my comment about the funding/profit share arrangement.

Ron is going nowhere - he has such a vested interest in this project, that he can't afford to let this project fail, nor will he walk away until he has made something, which means we are stuck with one another for the foreseeable future.

 

[rigsby]

This comes back to the point I was making. That is mostly the reason why it has taken so long to get nowhere. However, as I also stated, now BL are involved I still have hope. I simply can't see them taking any longer then they have to as they won't want their capital tied up.

The problem with RM (pre-BL) is that he has never built anything, he has always sold before the build, so he's had extremely little experience of actually having to finance and build. He can blame the recession (and to be fair he has a point) but he should also look closer to home. I've been told stories of how he simply failed to negotiate with various people who then bypassed him and went to Sainsbury's instead, and had a deal done in weeks.

He simply doesn't know how to build.

In fairness to Ron, Sainsbury's were already lined up for the project before he took over. He has never claimed or wanted to finance the project. That was always going to be down to Sainsbury's and now it will be BL

The main reasons for the slowness of the project has been our council and Sainsbury's dragging their feet. Yes their are difficulties because of the shortage of land and the access to any site in our town. Plus it was always two projects in one.....Stadium and Supermarket.

Many of the towns up North have more land available and ring roads or motorways nearby so its easier to have them somewhere on the edge of town. Plus they have had a much more positive council when it comes to Football. Back in the days of uncle Vic, many councillors were not only against us having a new ground they would have happily closed the club down if they could. At least we have improved in that area.

I know its nice and convenient to blame Ron, especially if you already hate him. Fact is the problems were there before he arrived and we have no proof that anyone else could have made it happen quicker. If anyone knows of any multi-millionaire business men/women with a proven track record in large building projects, preferably with experience in sport stadiums and are sitting at home reading their old Southend programmes please let us know.

 

[rigsby]

You have misunderstood the point. The previous poster was asking why Ron never seemed to build anything...my response justifies his approach.
Also, British Land is a developer just like Ron - they are not a contractor (ergo, they do not physically build anything), hence my comment about the funding/profit share arrangement.

Ron is going nowhere - he has such a vested interest in this project, that he can't afford to let this project fail, nor will he walk away until he has made something, which means we are stuck with one another for the foreseeable future.

I do get your point it just doesn't make any difference to FF. Did the Arsenal chairman need any building experience to build the Emirates or what about Gold and Sullivan, their into porn not property

Ron has the land. The council are about to give permission to build a stadium on that land. BL has the finance and the experience to build the project. Finding the right builder will be the easy part of the project and it will be down to BL anyway.

The really hard bit will be building a team that will fil that stadium with 20,000 fans:winking:

Ps For what its worth I don't think RM will walk away after planning has been granted, I was just pointing out he could if he wanted to. Having said that developing is like football.... nothing is ever certain.

 

[RHB]

I believe (although I may be wrong) that RM has stated that the retail complex is basically his pension. If that is the case he won't walk away pre-build unless someone offers him a huge amount of money.

I agree, but that wasn't the point of my comment. I just want him to make something happen that is tangible and that we can see and believe in.

 

[Rob49]

The biggest threat to this proposal apart from the finances for it is the proposed 'Seaway' development. If this proceeds then in my opinion it will mean that the the cinema and other retail and food outlets will not be viable at FF. These are all key to the financing of the development and will lead to its death.

 

[londonblue]

In fairness to Ron, Sainsbury's were already lined up for the project before he took over. He has never claimed or wanted to finance the project. That was always going to be down to Sainsbury's and now it will be BL

The main reasons for the slowness of the project has been our council and Sainsbury's dragging their feet. Yes their are difficulties because of the shortage of land and the access to any site in our town. Plus it was always two projects in one.....Stadium and Supermarket.

Many of the towns up North have more land available and ring roads or motorways nearby so its easier to have them somewhere on the edge of town. Plus they have had a much more positive council when it comes to Football. Back in the days of uncle Vic, many councillors were not only against us having a new ground they would have happily closed the club down if they could. At least we have improved in that area.

I know its nice and convenient to blame Ron, especially if you already hate him. Fact is the problems were there before he arrived and we have no proof that anyone else could have made it happen quicker. If anyone knows of any multi-millionaire business men/women with a proven track record in large building projects, preferably with experience in sport stadiums and are sitting at home reading their old Southend programmes please let us know.

I'd disagree with most of that. Firstly, Morgan Stanley were apparently the first people to by lined up to finance this, not Sainsbury's. Once the worldwide recession hit they weren't interested. I wasn't talking about him physically financing the deal, I was talking about his lack of experience in organising someone else to finance.

I have some sympathy for RM because the delay caused by the government calling in the project is what meant the deal wasn't done before the recession, but to blame it on the council and Sainsbury's in a bit unfair, certainly in the council's respect.

The council haven't really had a lot to do. They passed the plans and waited, but nothing happened. RM went back to the council, and they agreed to his proposals...and nothing happened. In the end planning permission ran out, and RM had to start all over again. That is not the council's fault.

Had RM been quicker in dealing with the people who owned the retails stores around Roots Hall (the ones that need knocking down) then things would have happened before Sainsbury's started to see trouble ahead, and certainly before they changed their chairman, and before the new chairman put the stoppers on until he had conducted a review. All of this is convenient, and makes it easy to blame people other than RM, but had he pulled his finger out and actually dealt with this in a timely manner instead of messing people around (this bit might not be public information so I won't expand on it) then things would have been done and dusted years before Sainsbury's delayed things.

As I said, I have some sympathy for RM, but the real issue is his greed. Up until now he's insisted on doing this all himself so he doesn't have to share any of the profit. With the inclusion of BL I think he's now starting to be a bit more pragmatic, which (as I've stated previously) is why I still have hope.

 

[rigsby]

I'd disagree with most of that. Firstly, Morgan Stanley were apparently the first people to by lined up to finance this, not Sainsbury's. Once the worldwide recession hit they weren't interested. I wasn't talking about him physically financing the deal, I was talking about his lack of experience in organising someone else to finance.

I have some sympathy for RM because the delay caused by the government calling in the project is what meant the deal wasn't done before the recession, but to blame it on the council and Sainsbury's in a bit unfair, certainly in the council's respect.

The council haven't really had a lot to do. They passed the plans and waited, but nothing happened. RM went back to the council, and they agreed to his proposals...and nothing happened. In the end planning permission ran out, and RM had to start all over again. That is not the council's fault.

Had RM been quicker in dealing with the people who owned the retails stores around Roots Hall (the ones that need knocking down) then things would have happened before Sainsbury's started to see trouble ahead, and certainly before they changed their chairman, and before the new chairman put the stoppers on until he had conducted a review. All of this is convenient, and makes it easy to blame people other than RM, but had he pulled his finger out and actually dealt with this in a timely manner instead of messing people around (this bit might not be public information so I won't expand on it) then things would have been done and dusted years before Sainsbury's delayed things.

As I said, I have some sympathy for RM, but the real issue is his greed. Up until now he's insisted on doing this all himself so he doesn't have to share any of the profit. With the inclusion of BL I think he's now starting to be a bit more pragmatic, which (as I've stated previously) is why I still have hope.

RM cant impose a compulsory purchase order. In every similar situation owners always hold out, yes they will say we don't want to move for all sorts of reasons but what their after is more money.

I'm not claiming that Ron has done no wrong but the head of the college has stated that he arranged the sale of their land to Sainsbury's on seven occasions and each time they pulled out.

Having dealt with Southend council for my own project I know first hand how useless they can be. There are Essex based firms in the building industry that will not deal with you if you are working in Southend.

 

[londonblue]

RM cant impose a compulsory purchase order. In every similar situation owners always hold out, yes they will say we don't want to move for all sorts of reasons but what their after is more money.

I'm not claiming that Ron has done no wrong but the head of the college has stated that he arranged the sale of their land to Sainsbury's on seven occasions and each time they pulled out.

Having dealt with Southend council for my own project I know first hand how useless they can be. There are Essex based firms in the building industry that will not deal with you if you are working in Southend.

They only went to a CPO because they couldn't agree a deal. The same people then turned their backs on RM and dealt directly with Sainsbury's.

The college is a different matter, and I don't know a whole lot about that.