Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[londonblue]

Presumably you are obliquely referring to alleged antisemtism within the Labour Party. As the largest socialist party in Europe with nearly 600,000 members it would indeed be surprising if there were not a tiny number of antisemites amongst the membership.As much as the Westminster commentariat might try to talk it up however it is not an issue I have ever encountered on the doorstep.People are generally more concerned about what is happening to their communities under the Tories rather than abstract issues like this.

I doubt very much you would encounter it on the doorstep because, quite frankly, most people couldn't give a rat's arse, and you probably don't meet many Jews on the doorstep. However, I can assure you that, should you canvass around my way, you'd encounter it plenty. The other thing is it's not a tiny minority, it's a fairly large minority. However, I accept it is a minority.

The vast majority of Jews in this country think the labour party has a problem. I doubt they're all simply wrong. I guess it's not really ever going to be a priority for the party because there simply aren't enough Jews, and Jewish supporters, in the country for it to make a difference in any election.

The shame of it is that this is already going the wrong way. Some of the labour MPs who attended the protest on Monday have been threatened with deselection.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I doubt very much you would encounter it on the doorstep because, quite frankly, most people couldn't give a rat's arse, and you probably don't meet many Jews on the doorstep. However, I can assure you that, should you canvass around my way, you'd encounter it plenty. The other thing is it's not a tiny minority, it's a fairly large minority. However, I accept it is a minority.

The vast majority of Jews in this country think the labour party has a problem. I doubt they're all simply wrong. I guess it's not really ever going to be a priority for the party because there simply aren't enough Jews, and Jewish supporters, in the country for it to make a difference in any election.

The shame of it is that this is already going the wrong way. Some of the labour MPs who attended the protest on Monday have been threatened with deselection.

You should perhaps be grateful you don't live in Paris,where I'd suggest antisemitism might be a rather more serious problem.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/26/france-police-mireille-knoll-paris-antisemitic-attack

There were widespread protest marches against this grotesque murder in Paris and elsewhere in France,which were widely reported on the French news, yesterday.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...in-france-after-suspected-antisemitic-killing

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

In that case you need to realise that as an activist (whether its regular or not) your actions really do have influence. However, it's not just you. It's the fact that I make the assumption that you're not the only one, and if people like you, who simply can't see what is staring you in the face are still around, then regardless of the progress Corbyn makes I will think twice before voting...

This is a strange old world we live in but I’m loathe to believe that someone who has slated Corbyn constantly for the best part of two years has got to the point where he would vote for him after all – if it wasn’t for my presence on a football forum (even if just as an example of others). That sounds like a poor attempt at reverse psychology to be honest.
But that is really how it is then that is how it is.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I doubt very much you would encounter it on the doorstep because, quite frankly, most people couldn't give a rat's arse, and you probably don't meet many Jews on the doorstep. However, I can assure you that, should you canvass around my way, you'd encounter it plenty. The other thing is it's not a tiny minority, it's a fairly large minority. However, I accept it is a minority.

The vast majority of Jews in this country think the labour party has a problem. I doubt they're all simply wrong. I guess it's not really ever going to be a priority for the party because there simply aren't enough Jews, and Jewish supporters, in the country for it to make a difference in any election.

The shame of it is that this is already going the wrong way. Some of the labour MPs who attended the protest on Monday have been threatened with deselection.

Deselection is largely scare tactics – thrown around by mouthy activists and ramped up by the media. The Lammy deselection threat was a Facebook group with 12 members. This week The Evening Standard had a front page dedicated to deselection threats to the leader of Wandsworth Council and then used the same story for a major feature the next day. The council leader who was the subject of the deselection threat took to twitter to say it was nonsense and the team are united.
It’s not a guaranteed job and if an MP or Councillor backs policy that that doesn’t appeal to the local members then it is only right that their position should be reviewed. Haringay is a good example – dressed up as a Momentum take over – it was a policy disagreement over private funds regenerating homes that it was feared would price out the people whose homes would be demolished.

 

[Bielzibubz]

To be honest I wouldn’t pay too much attention to what is said on here. We swap information and wind each other up. I’d base my vote on manifesto pledges and ability to put those into practice rather than football forum mutterings.

And there in lies the problem for British politics and Labour in particular. Make as many promises and pledges you like about being for the people and the downtrodden of this country but the facts remain, as has been born out by the last 40 years of capitalistic politics in this country (Bliar was Labour in name only. He and some of those he surrounded himself with were more right wing than some Tories are now) Saying and pledging something is a whole world away from actually being able to do it.

Despite taking the moral high ground with policies and soundbites that resonate with sections of the public, the more those policies upset the people and companies that hold the real power in this country the less chance they ever have of being enacted and JC's and the far left's policies upset many of those people and companies.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

And there in lies the problem for British politics and Labour in particular. Make as many promises and pledges you like about being for the people and the downtrodden of this country but the facts remain, as has been born out by the last 40 years of capitalistic politics in this country (Bliar was Labour in name only. He and some of those he surrounded himself with were more right wing than some Tories are now) Saying and pledging something is a whole world away from actually being able to do it.

Despite taking the moral high ground with policies and soundbites that resonate with sections of the public, the more those policies upset the people and companies that hold the real power in this country the less chance they ever have of being enacted and JC's and the far left's policies upset many of those people and companies.

I couldn't disagree more.

Manifestos have to be a pledge. I would make them enforceable personally.


I don't think there has been a manifesto discarded as readily as the one May presented in 2017. There should have been absolute outrage that the words they put down meant nothing.


The Labour manifesto had more solid pledges that would have had to be actioned for credibility and because the growth of the party relied on members remaining enthusiastic. The Tory party membership and engagement has fallen so low that all they have to do is maintain the status quo - that is all that is expected of them. The current incarnation of Labour would need action and change to justify its existence.


Your response to this - wether your own views or you predicting wider opinion - is utterly defeatist. And that is why the increased Labour membership is enthused - because this change is being offered and if in government the membership would demand it is actioned.


Deplorable that manifesto pledges are allowed to be devalued but that is precisely what this government has done. A Labour government in this age would not be allowed to do the same.

 

[Bielzibubz]

I couldn't disagree more.

Manifestos have to be a pledge. 1. I would make them enforceable personally.


I don't think there has been a manifesto discarded as readily as the one May presented in 2017. There should have been absolute outrage that the words they put down meant nothing.


The Labour manifesto had more 2. solid pledges that would have had to be actioned for credibility and because the growth of the party relied on members remaining enthusiastic. The Tory party membership and engagement has fallen so low that all they have to do is maintain the status quo - that is all that is expected of them. 3. The current incarnation of Labour would need action and change to justify its existence.


Your response to this - wether your own views or you predicting wider opinion - 4. is utterly defeatist. And that is why the increased Labour membership is enthused - because this change is being offered and if in 5. government the membership would demand it is actioned.


Deplorable that manifesto pledges are allowed to be devalued but that is precisely what this government has done. 6. A Labour government in this age would not be allowed to do the same.

1. Highly laudable but unworkable in practice.

2. Again, pledges that couldn't be put into action.

3. Need. Unfortunately, or not, depending on your political view, if they get into power they can need all they want. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We live in a capitalistic world of want now, have now, buy now, pay later individuals and anything or anyone that impinges on that way of life won't last long. Big business, hubris, greed, corruption and corporate influence will see to that.

4. Not defeatist. Realistic and pragmatic.

5. Demanding and getting are two completely different things.

6. They wouldn't have a choice though. Unlike TUIB I do admire you're conviction at times *** but no one man, woman or political party is more powerful than the private financiers, huge corporate multinationals with vested interests, arms manufacturers and dealers etc etc. They are the ones with the real power and they are the ones that mould the political landscape to suit and will continue to do so long after we're gone. Left wing Socialism and all it stands for hasn't been a viable political option for decades now and theres a very good reason for it. Despite all the great soundbites and pledges about taking back control of our railways, cancelling out tuition fees, £billions extra for the NHS etc etc etc the majority of the UK and it's economy are doing ok thank you and they don't see JC and his policies as a way of continuing that status quo.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

[/B]

1. Highly laudable but unworkable in practice.

2. Again, pledges that couldn't be put into action.

3. Need. Unfortunately, or not, depending on your political view, if they get into power they can need all they want. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We live in a capitalistic world of want now, have now, buy now, pay later individuals and anything or anyone that impinges on that way of life won't last long. Big business, hubris, greed, corruption and corporate influence will see to that.

4. Not defeatist. Realistic and pragmatic.

5. Demanding and getting are two completely different things.

6. They wouldn't have a choice though. Unlike TUIB I do admire you're conviction at times *** but no one man, woman or political party is more powerful than the private financiers, huge corporate multinationals with vested interests, arms manufacturers and dealers etc etc. They are the ones with the real power and they are the ones that mould the political landscape to suit and will continue to do so long after we're gone. Left wing Socialism and all it stands for hasn't been a viable political option for decades now and theres a very good reason for it. Despite all the great soundbites and pledges about taking back control of our railways, cancelling out tuition fees, £billions extra for the NHS etc etc etc the majority of the UK and it's economy are doing ok thank you and they don't see JC and his policies as a way of continuing that status quo.

Your final comment is just laughable.I strongly suspect the next Labour government will prove you wrong on that and also what I've highlighted above.Coming your way fairly soon and probably before 2022.:winking:

 

[londonblue]

This is a strange old world we live in but I’m loathe to believe that someone who has slated Corbyn constantly for the best part of two years has got to the point where he would vote for him after all – if it wasn’t for my presence on a football forum (even if just as an example of others). That sounds like a poor attempt at reverse psychology to be honest.
But that is really how it is then that is how it is.

Believe what you want if it makes you feel better and allows you to think your actions won't have a detrimental affect. I've slated Corbyn because I don't like how weak he has been on this one subject.

I've also just seen an email he sent from Corbyn to all Labour MPs (it was on Twitter) which gives me further hope of a genuine change. However there are still mixed messages because that loathsome woman Abbott is still getting involved.

 

[londonblue]

Deselection is largely scare tactics – thrown around by mouthy activists and ramped up by the media. The Lammy deselection threat was a Facebook group with 12 members. This week The Evening Standard had a front page dedicated to deselection threats to the leader of Wandsworth Council and then used the same story for a major feature the next day. The council leader who was the subject of the deselection threat took to twitter to say it was nonsense and the team are united.
It’s not a guaranteed job and if an MP or Councillor backs policy that that doesn’t appeal to the local members then it is only right that their position should be reviewed. Haringay is a good example – dressed up as a Momentum take over – it was a policy disagreement over private funds regenerating homes that it was feared would price out the people whose homes would be demolished.

It wasn't so much the threat. It was more that Corbyn refused to condemn it.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I would be very happy if Southend Tories deselected the current MPs, among the local councillors there are some good men and women who would do a better job.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

[/B]

1. Highly laudable but unworkable in practice.

2. Again, pledges that couldn't be put into action.

3. Need. Unfortunately, or not, depending on your political view, if they get into power they can need all they want. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We live in a capitalistic world of want now, have now, buy now, pay later individuals and anything or anyone that impinges on that way of life won't last long. Big business, hubris, greed, corruption and corporate influence will see to that.

4. Not defeatist. Realistic and pragmatic.

5. Demanding and getting are two completely different things.

6. They wouldn't have a choice though. Unlike TUIB I do admire you're conviction at times *** but no one man, woman or political party is more powerful than the private financiers, huge corporate multinationals with vested interests, arms manufacturers and dealers etc etc. They are the ones with the real power and they are the ones that mould the political landscape to suit and will continue to do so long after we're gone. Left wing Socialism and all it stands for hasn't been a viable political option for decades now and theres a very good reason for it. Despite all the great soundbites and pledges about taking back control of our railways, cancelling out tuition fees, £billions extra for the NHS etc etc etc the majority of the UK and it's economy are doing ok thank you and they don't see JC and his policies as a way of continuing that status quo.

I'll be brief-ish and only answer one point.

The final sentence is key. The majority of the UK and its economy are not doing ok. Our growth is the worst in the Western World, our national debt has tripled, life expectancy has actually started falling - these are not good soundbites but you maybe can't feel them as an individual.


Then there are things that won't necessarily touch too many Tory voters but they may know people on zero hours contracts, people who have to use food banks, personal debt is rising, people being denied legal aid, youth services that no longer exist, new parent services that no longer exist. They will have seen with their own eyes that homelessness is increasing, they will be aware that A&E waiting times are the worst they have ever been, they will see the rubbish on our streets and pot holes in our roads.


And then you get to the things that will be very apparent to middle class voters - people leave Uni with £40k+ of debt and in order to buy a house need to earn salaries that they may hope to hit in their 40's rather than their 20's.


This is the problem for the Tories - they are losing the ability to maintain the status quo because they have let go of the means of creating new Tory voters. They need homeowners. They need people who don't want to take a chance with socialism because they need to pay the mortgage. This is May's issue - the government were so consumed by austerity and now by Brexit that they don't have the time and energy for anything else. They are not maintaining the status quo as they are not creating Tory voters.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I would be very happy if Southend Tories deselected the current MPs, among the local councillors there are some good men and women who would do a better job.

The word deselection is banded around like it's an evil force to remove good men and women from public roles but as individuals how often have we become aware of words and actions of MPs and thought 'how is that person still in that job?'The expenses scandal alone should have been career ending for a lot of our politicians. In general I think we deserve better than we are offered.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Your final comment is just laughable.I strongly suspect the next Labour government will prove you wrong on that and also what I've highlighted above.Coming your way fairly soon and probably before 2022.:winking:

You're naivety is truly astonishing :nope: That said I'll wager you here and now that IF, and it's a mighty big IF in my opinion, Labour are the next government in power, the vast majority of their more left wing manifesto pledges will never make it through the corridors of power. £100.00 towards Shrimperzone. Care to stand by you're convictions?

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

The word deselection is banded around like it's an evil force to remove good men and women from public roles but as individuals how often have we become aware of words and actions of MPs and thought 'how is that person still in that job?'The expenses scandal alone should have been career ending for a lot of our politicians. In general I think we deserve better than we are offered.

So very true, for that scandal and others MANY should have gone.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

You're naivety is truly astonishing :nope: That said I'll wager you here and now that IF, and it's a mighty big IF in my opinion, Labour are the next government in power, the vast majority of their more left wing manifesto pledges will never make it through the corridors of power. £100.00 towards Shrimperzone. Care to stand by you're convictions?

I'm quite happy to bet you a tenner (payable to SZ) that Labour win win the next GE ie be the largest single party.Interested? :unsure:

And don't ever ****ing call me ****ing naive again.I'm just as entitled to my opinions as you are.IF you've got some valid,rational arguments against them;which I doubt,let's hear them ,instead of just your usual counter opinions or predjudices.

 

[MK Shrimper]

If Corbyn would overturn Article 50 and keep us in the EU he'd waltz into power. He won't and therefore I think that'll be his downfall.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

If Corbyn would overturn Article 50 and keep us in the EU he'd waltz into power. He won't and therefore I think that'll be his downfall.

I'd love that to be the case but I think the country is still split down the middle with Brexit - any party that switches from Leave to Remain or vice versa will probably lose as much support as they gain. I don't think any polls (not that they are worth a damn) have given any solid evidence that the mood of the country has shifted. When we find out what the deal ends up being, then the country may shift, and Labour may shift, but I don't think that Remain yet has a majority. May still happen though.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I'd love that to be the case but I think the country is still split down the middle with Brexit - any party that switches from Leave to Remain or vice versa will probably lose as much support as they gain. I don't think any polls (not that they are worth a damn) have given any solid evidence that the mood of the country has shifted. When we find out what the deal ends up being, then the country may shift, and Labour may shift, but I don't think that Remain yet has a majority. May still happen though.

Anecdotal, (I know), but yesterday I bumped into a retired Welsh bloke in a restaurant in Servian-near Pézenas - (that my wife and I first went to some 40 years ago now) and he (like me) was strongly anti-Brexit. Unlike me. he he'd taken out French citizenship, something I'd be extremely reluctant to do, even though (given the 5 year EU residence rule) I could easily apply for, (and get), Spanish citizenship.

 

[Uncle Leo]

Anecdotal, (I know), but yesterday I bumped into a retired Welsh bloke in a restaurant in Servian-near Pézenas - (that my wife and I first went to some 40 years ago now) and he (like me) was strongly anti-Brexit. Unlike me. he he'd taken out French citizenship, something I'd be extremely reluctant to do, even though (given the 5 year EU residence rule) I could easily apply for, (and get), Spanish citizenship.

Two British people who don't even live in the UK. Not sure how that helps demonstrate anything.

I'm inclined to agree with *** on this - many of us who oppose Brexit like to think the country would, in a referendum tomorrow, vote to reverse the decision but maybe that is a bit of echo chamberism.