Jeremy Corbyn's Labour

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Perhaps you could help him by letting us all know what will Labour be doing for Britain post Brexit. What you haven't learnt is telling the world how nasty the Tories are, completely failed in the GE so change the record. Don't bother blaming the press because that's what my union did after every defeat rather than admit to their own failings. Remember that now forgotten phrase 'We have to listen to people'

If you want people to vote Labour they need more than what they get from the likes of Alastair Campbell.....We should have never had a referendum in the first place. Well Alastair we did and we voted out....so what are you offering me.

I will bother blaming the press as long as they keep bothering to be so biased.

The 'nasty' party is a phrase you often use, I don't, for me the Tory crimes are self interest and incompetence. Listening is not their forte.


The Tories have a tiny majority and Labour lost the GE largely due to the rise of the SNP so if lessons are to be learned it's best to look in the right place - rather than to the right.


Where have you plucked Alastair Campbell from? He is not party of the Labour Party. That is as relevant to the current Labour Party as MrsBlue's new obsession with David Milliband.




Post Brexit is a bit ahead of the game - it's going to happen in 2 years at the easiest, some predict it will take 10 years, some predict it will never happen. The government haven't even stated what they are looking for as an outcome so anyone else stating what they intend to do after that would be a bit pointless.


Labour's main role in the meantime is to get the government to reveal its aims and it's timetable and to get Parliament to have as much say as possible on the eventual outcome. Considering May's refusal to concede on any of the points for the first few months major inroads have been made and concessions have been won. At the point that the concessions come to fruition then that is the real start point for opposition parties to show their worth.


The government want Brexit to mean Brexit. Lib Dems want a 2nd referendum. SNP want Scotland to stay in the EU. Labour want to honour the result but make in work for the UK. Until we know more about the government strategy the real work is to make sure they have one and that it is for all of our representatives not just David Davies and Boris Johnson.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

that's where you are wrong as the Tories are still arming Saudi Arabia - a terrorist state

As did Blair and Brown - try again.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

It's a bit rich to still be banging on about the Blair/Brown years on immigration after the Tories have been in power for the last 6 years (and maybe for another 4).

Haven't UKIP got anything at all positive to say about immigration? Labour has.

JC:-"We should recognise that European workers in Britain do contribute massively to the health service, education, manufacturing industry, care work, agricultural sector. We’d be in quite a difficult place if they all went."

I'm pretty sure we had all those things before over a million arrived from central/eastern almost over night.
Infrastructure wasn't in place to handle so many people at one time and still isn't. Labour p****d an awful lot of people off - it's going to be a long way back for them, if at all.

 

[callan]

I will bother blaming the press as long as they keep bothering to be so biased.

The 'nasty' party is a phrase you often use, I don't, for me the Tory crimes are self interest and incompetence. Listening is not their forte.


The Tories have a tiny majority and Labour lost the GE largely due to the rise of the SNP so if lessons are to be learned it's best to look in the right place - rather than to the right.


Where have you plucked Alastair Campbell from? He is not party of the Labour Party. That is as relevant to the current Labour Party as MrsBlue's new obsession with David Milliband.




Post Brexit is a bit ahead of the game - it's going to happen in 2 years at the easiest, some predict it will take 10 years, some predict it will never happen. The government haven't even stated what they are looking for as an outcome so anyone else stating what they intend to do after that would be a bit pointless.


Labour's main role in the meantime is to get the government to reveal its aims and it's timetable and to get Parliament to have as much say as possible on the eventual outcome. Considering May's refusal to concede on any of the points for the first few months major inroads have been made and concessions have been won. At the point that the concessions come to fruition then that is the real start point for opposition parties to show their worth.


The government want Brexit to mean Brexit. Lib Dems want a 2nd referendum. SNP want Scotland to stay in the EU. Labour want to honour the result but make in work for the UK. Until we know more about the government strategy the real work is to make sure they have one and that it is for all of our representatives not just David Davies and Boris Johnson.

If that's correct, which I believe it to be....are you in agreement with Barna that Labour will need to ally itself with all the other parties....especially the SNP....or do you see things differently?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

As did Blair and Brown - try again.

I tink it's pretty safe to assume that JC wouldn't sell arms to the Saudis.

I'm pretty sure we had all those things before over a million arrived from central/eastern almost over night.
Infrastructure wasn't in place to handle so many people at one time and still isn't. Labour p****d an awful lot of people off - it's going to be a long way back for them, if at all.

Labour will be back in power eventually.Even if they lose the next G/E.

 

[callan]

I tink it's pretty safe to assume that JC wouldn't sell arms to the Saudis.



Labour will be back in power eventually.Even if they lose the next G/E.

So in summary, Corbyn might not sell arms to the Saudi's but as he's unlikely to win a G/E any prospective Labour government may well supply them as they have in the past.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

As did Blair and Brown - try again.

sounds like we have reached agreement - Brown, Blair, Cameron and May have armed the murderous Saudis but Corbyn wouldn't

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nry-viii-theresa-may-brexit-deal-commons-vote

The new great leader speaks (to the Grauniad at least).:smile:

Bad news for Blair.Interesting to hear what he has to say about immigrants and also that unreported Telford victory (with a 20% swing to Labour).:thumbsup:

You've linked to the wrong Grauniad article as that's quoting Corbyn

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

If that's correct, which I believe it to be....are you in agreement with Barna that Labour will need to ally itself with all the other parties....especially the SNP....or do you see things differently?

I'm not saying that Labour should ally themselves with SNP, I'm saying Labour lost votes to SNP rather than UKIP or the Conservatives. The Lib Dem votes went to the Tories on the whole.
Those that keep saying Labour should learn from the GE seem to be suggesting the lesson should be 'move right'. I disagree with that as IMO Labour's biggest issue was the loss of votes to another left wing party.

An informal support network may be of use at some point in the future but there are fundamental differences so I can't see a formal alliance ever being an option.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I'm pretty sure we had all those things before over a million arrived from central/eastern almost over night.
Infrastructure wasn't in place to handle so many people at one time and still isn't. Labour p****d an awful lot of people off - it's going to be a long way back for them, if at all.

but the specific policies you are objecting to have been continued by the Tories. The only difference is that Cameron repeatedly claimed he would reduce immigration to tens of thousands despite having no mechanism to do so. EU migration has stayed lower than non EU migration remember so that is not even the get out clause.
I would guess that those who stay ****ed off with Labour for high levels of immigration 6 years ago but are not ****ed off with the Tories for even higher levels of immigration over the last 6 years are probably not the best gauge of public opinion.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Don't read it. The Sun would have a more balanced view for politics.

it's an interview though not an editorial so as long as you trust them to report his words accurately then it should be of interest

 

[rigsby]

I will bother blaming the press as long as they keep bothering to be so biased.

The 'nasty' party is a phrase you often use, I don't, for me the Tory crimes are self interest and incompetence. Listening is not their forte.


The Tories have a tiny majority and Labour lost the GE largely due to the rise of the SNP so if lessons are to be learned it's best to look in the right place - rather than to the right.


Where have you plucked Alastair Campbell from? He is not party of the Labour Party. That is as relevant to the current Labour Party as MrsBlue's new obsession with David Milliband.




Post Brexit is a bit ahead of the game - it's going to happen in 2 years at the easiest, some predict it will take 10 years, some predict it will never happen. The government haven't even stated what they are looking for as an outcome so anyone else stating what they intend to do after that would be a bit pointless.


Labour's main role in the meantime is to get the government to reveal its aims and it's timetable and to get Parliament to have as much say as possible on the eventual outcome. Considering May's refusal to concede on any of the points for the first few months major inroads have been made and concessions have been won. At the point that the concessions come to fruition then that is the real start point for opposition parties to show their worth.


The government want Brexit to mean Brexit. Lib Dems want a 2nd referendum. SNP want Scotland to stay in the EU. Labour want to honour the result but make in work for the UK. Until we know more about the government strategy the real work is to make sure they have one and that it is for all of our representatives not just David Davies and Boris Johnson.

Now before we start remember I'm only trying to help your beloved Labour party.

1) Just like any Union most of the press will have it in for the Labour. You either learn to deal with it and plan for it or just like my Union you lose on a grand scale.

2) Nobody thinks any politician listens so Tory bashing won't win you any votes.

3) Scotland spoke and now the North have spoke but nobody outside your group, thinks lessons have been learnt.

4) I quoted AC because he was interviewed by the BBC last week. Yes he is yesterdays man and tainted with the Blair years, which a lot of people have still not forgiven Labour. If you don't want him to be speaking on your behalf, then you need people who will have a point of view and not avoid important questions like every current Labour person I see on QT. They won't get invited on the next news programme.

5) Claiming it will take 10 years just confirms to people why they voted out......Politicians are incompetent and hide behind red tape. No its not pointless to have plans post Brexit.

6) People who voted out have no faith that Labour want Brexit to work for them. EU is for big business and whilst you continue to Resent rather than Represent the people who actually do the work, you will never win a GE.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Now before we start remember I'm only trying to help your beloved Labour party.

1) Just like any Union most of the press will have it in for the Labour. You either learn to deal with it and plan for it or just like my Union you lose on a grand scale.

2) Nobody thinks any politician listens so Tory bashing won't win you any votes.

3) Scotland spoke and now the North have spoke but nobody outside your group, thinks lessons have been learnt.

4) I quoted AC because he was interviewed by the BBC last week. Yes he is yesterdays man and tainted with the Blair years, which a lot of people have still not forgiven Labour. If you don't want him to be speaking on your behalf, then you need people who will have a point of view and not avoid important questions like every current Labour person I see on QT. They won't get invited on the next news programme.

5) Claiming it will take 10 years just confirms to people why they voted out......Politicians are incompetent and hide behind red tape. No its not pointless to have plans post Brexit.

6) People who voted out have no faith that Labour want Brexit to work for them. EU is for big business and whilst you continue to Resent rather than Represent the people who actually do the work, you will never win a GE.

Preamble - highly amusing.


1) if there is a discussion about getting your message across then looking at the bias of the media is not something to overlook, yes it's something we have to acknowledge and find ways around it but first thing is to point out the bias is real


2) the job of the opposition is firstly to hold the government to account. That will inevitably come across as Tory bashing as they are in government


3) Scotland spoke and now the North is too - in what way? Labour did badly in Scotland but are increasing their vote in the Northern by elections since the GE. Are you talking about the EU? Scotland and the North voted the opposite way to each other then too.


4) it's easy for ex politicians to spout their views in a feisty manner. John Major was more vocal recently than he ever was as PM. IDS is another that is a different person (he'd have you believe) when outside of the cabinet. Campbell is someone I quite like for his sparky delivery but he'd double cross you in an instant. Richard Burgon, Angela Rayner, Cat Smith - as far as I am concerned they all speak their minds on QT, often as a loan voice for the left as those panels are v questionable in my mind. Tim ****ing Stanley again!


5) 10 years to leave the EU is based on the lack of signs of progress from the government. It's been 6 months since the vote and the government are still dicking around with court cases. Do you genuinely think it will be done and dusted in 2 years? As far as I'm aware they still have a massive shortage of negotiators. And what is the core guidance for negotiators?
I genuinely expect May to quit as this job is too big for her.


6) 48% of the vote was to remain. All the talk of 'the people have spoken' is about the 52%. LibDems are focussing on the 48%. The government say they are dedicated to opinion of the 52% but don't seem to have made any inroads on making that a reality. Labour aim to appeal to the 100% - that is no easy task and in places like Richmond it will temporarily seem like they are appealing to 0%. But things will need to move forward for the government in 2017 and how Labour react to that will see a shift in voter opinion one way or another.

 

[callan]

I'm not saying that Labour should ally themselves with SNP, I'm saying Labour lost votes to SNP rather than UKIP or the Conservatives. The Lib Dem votes went to the Tories on the whole.
Those that keep saying Labour should learn from the GE seem to be suggesting the lesson should be 'move right'. I disagree with that as IMO Labour's biggest issue was the loss of votes to another left wing party.

An informal support network may be of use at some point in the future but there are fundamental differences so I can't see a formal alliance ever being an option.

Personally, I see it as damage being done by both UKIP and the SNP, one in terms of seats and the other votes.

I don't think that Labour necessarily need to move to the right as to do so would probably alienate as much support as it would gain.

What they cannot afford to do is to further distance themselves from the working classes outside of the larger metropolitan areas...whist this may appear to be a big ask...it certainly isn't impossible.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

If that's correct, which I believe it to be....are you in agreement with Barna that Labour will need to ally itself with all the other parties....especially the SNP....or do you see things differently?

I've never suggested that Labour should join a formal alliance with the SNP etc,though I myself wouldn't have a problem with that.

So in summary, Corbyn might not sell arms to the Saudi's but as he's unlikely to win a G/E any prospective Labour government may well supply them as they have in the past.

We'll just have to wait and see what the post-Corbyn Labour party looks like.

FWIW,I happen to think that the shift to the left and anti-austerity policies are here to stay,avec or sans Jeremy.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Personally, I see it as damage being done by both UKIP and the SNP, one in terms of seats and the other votes.

I don't think that Labour necessarily need to move to the right as to do so would probably alienate as much support as it would gain.

What they cannot afford to do is to further distance themselves from the working classes outside of the larger metropolitan areas...whist this may appear to be a big ask...it certainly isn't impossible.

I wouldn't disagree with your analysis of the SNP, which I fully expect to be in power in Scotland for some time to come.

However,as I've pointed out before,electoral analyists have suggested that UKIP have taken votes from the Tories in a proportion of 2:1 nationally to that of Labour.

So far,despite all the big talk,no Labour constituency in the North (or Midlands) has been won by UKIP.One begins to wonder if this will ever happen,in fact.

 

[callan]

I wouldn't disagree with your analysis of the SNP, which I fully expect to be in power in Scotland for some time to come.

However,as I've pointed out before,electoral analyists have suggested that UKIP have taken votes from the Tories in a proportion of 2:1 nationally to that of Labour.

So far,despite all the big talk,no Labour constituency in the North (or Midlands) has been won by UKIP.One begins to wonder if this will ever happen,in fact.

I assume you are referring to the Fabian analysis which agrees that the conservatives lost twice as many voters as Labour, however concluded that the loss to the latter was more damaging.

Lets be honest there were parts of UKIP in the run up to the last GE that were an absolute shambles, and had a leader in Farage who couldn't at times keep his finger away from the self destruct button and yet still they attracted according to the analysts.... over 1 million voters away from Labour.

 

[callan]

I've never suggested that Labour should join a formal alliance with the SNP etc,though I myself wouldn't have a problem with that.



We'll just have to wait and see what the post-Corbyn Labour party looks like.

FWIW,I happen to think that the shift to the left and anti-austerity policies are here to stay,avec or sans Jeremy.

I think if a shift to the left is more than an Islington tea party, then possibly there is value in that...at present though I dont see that Labour are in touch with elements of their core vote, this could be addressed by sorting out the trap of benefits in addition to ending zero hour contracts etc

In other words tackle the things that genuinely impact people.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I assume you are referring to the Fabian analysis which agrees that the conservatives lost twice as many voters as Labour, however concluded that the loss to the latter was more damaging.

Lets be honest there were parts of UKIP in the run up to the last GE that were an absolute shambles, and had a leader in Farage who couldn't at times keep his finger away from the self destruct button and yet still they attracted according to the analysts.... over 1 million voters away from Labour.

No.I was referring to:- Revolt on the Right by Robert Ford and Matthew Goodwin.

Though tbf the Fabian analysis was probably mentioned in that.I really can't remember.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I think if a shift to the left is more than an Islington tea party, then possibly there is value in that...at present though I dont see that Labour are in touch with elements of their core vote, this could be addressed by sorting out the trap of benefits in addition to ending zero hour contracts etc

In other words tackle the things that genuinely impact people.

I'm hopeful we'll see a lot more of this sort of thing from a Labour party united under their (twice) elected leader in 2017 onwards.