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Pre-Match Thread HMRC v SUFC - FINAL hearing on 1st March. DISMISSED

Outcome of HMRC court case 1 March


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Time to pick this utter guff apart.


"once HMRC collapsed our time to pay agreement..."

 Typical RM deflection and "it's always someone else's fault, never mine". Even worse, it suggests a sense of exceptionalism and entitlement. He entered into a TTP with HMRC. The TTP had Ts&Cs attached, and possible punishment in the event of them being broken would have been clear. He broke the Ts&Cs. It doesn't matter how close to the end of the schedule it was - he entered into an agreement and didn't honour it, notwithstanding the fact he's been taking the **** out of HMRC for years anyway. Plenty of other clubs entered into TTP agreements with HMRC, but no other club but SUFC appears to have failed to fulfil theirs.


"...which meant the legacy debt which was nearly all accured during the pandemic when income was very limited with costs the same...combined with double relegations and a large reduction of central income this proved to be the perfect storm."

Was it also the perfect storm the other, what is it, 8 times that the club has been subject to winding-up petitions over the last 10 years? Or when Sainsbury's saved the club from being wound-up in 2009/10? Are we also forgetting the fact that the buck for the double relegations lies with you and the fact that you made a string of terrible managerial selections and took your eye off the ball with the football side of things as you became increasingly desperate for the Fossetts Farm plans to come to fruition?


"We will not let the club be wound up and there are reasonable prospects in train to meet the clubs cash needs in time but it will be close.....Raising the funds is my primary focus, we are advanced but not there yet but i am not a magician."

This message is contradictory. Either the club's cash needs are met or it is wound up. Why are the prospects only "reasonable"? If we assume that you are still pursuing a bridging loan (assumptions and conjectures are all we have since you don't have the decency to tell us what is actually going on), and you are adamant that you won't let the club be wound up, then what are your backup/contingency plans? What does "advanced but not there yet" mean and what is the hold up, especially since it seems to stuck at the same point it was stuck at back in October. We have a right to know more than you're letting on.


"Roots Hall is a cash pit, income once a fortnight for 9 months of the year has always meant it needs a beneficiary, for that reasonthe club will never be sustainable while it remains at Roots Hall."

Whilst there is a modicum of merit to this argument, let's not forget that you've contributed to Roots Hall becoming a "money pit". You've neglected it and let it rot, and you long ago gave up on trying anything new and inventive to get some extra revenue in on match days - and plenty of sound ideas from supporters have been scoffed at by the club's hierarchy. Some might say you took your eye off Roots Hall completely and put all focus on Fossetts.....others might suggest you knew what you were doing and have deliberately backed the club into a corner where it is literally your Fossetts plans or bust.


"The relocation plans will fix that for good allowing us to compete without the constant large cash cold when we get back in the EFL."

This is the hundredth time we've heard all this but there is still a lot of vagueness and secrecy around the extent to which the club will benefit from the new stadium with the current plans. Sure, any additional non-matchday income will be an improvement over the current situation, but where are the details about exactly what ancilliary facilities there will be and forecasts of how much income they could generate? Will it be enough to cover the current losses? What is break-even point forecast to be? Is there scope to expand/add to the facilities? This information, and its importance to the buy-in of the fanbase, has been forgotten and relegated down the priority list in favour of the housing element. Who is truly promoting the club's interests and future financial well-being, outside of your vague, empty references to unquantifiable additional revenue streams?


"However IF we can get past this current trauma the future for the club is bright."

"If" doesn' fill anybody with any confidence and if it is still an "if" at this lead time then you need to be thinking outside the box to get the WUP dismissed, even if that means conceding a slice of your ample half-a-billion £ pie.

Also, please stop deluding yourself that any future for SUFC with you in it is bright. The damage is done, there is too much water under the bridge for you to redeem yourself and this club will never fully drag its reputation out of the gutter and get the fresh start that it so badly needs whilst you are still here. The new stadium, especially without clarity regarding the extent to which SUFC will quantifiably benefit from it, is not enough to be a true light at the end of the tunnel. If you truly love the club then let it move on. Whatever happens on 1st March, you need to go.


"We are advanced with the council, perhaps a little slower than both the club and council wish but with a fair wind and continued support from the council we could be on site in the close season now that the training ground works are completed."

Woah, woah, woah, woah. What's with the "advanced with the council" and "could be on site in the close season"? I thought planning permission had been granted already? You have had us under the impression for ages now that the final key to unlocking the commencement of the stadium build is the vacation of B&L and the occupation of the new training facilities. Now you suggest that there are more hurdles to overcome with the council? So we've been misled. Again. If "a fair wind and continued support from the council" isn't enough to get the stadium build started at Fossetts in the close season, then how can we feel safe that it'll begin before your bridging finance (if successful in getting it) runs out and we're back in this same sorry position again? Shambles.

Outstanding, bravo Sir 👏🏻
 
With regards to the planning permission for the stadium/housing FF project I think there maybe issues regarding roads, access etc even though the main complex plans have been approved. Maybe another poster can clarify this issue?
Yes get beyond the “excitement” and to the key issue to ensure we get beyond 1st March. I suggest this is a bit that we need to start focussing on…does replacing a hotel in such a huge development with housing really result in such a delay? Is approval still not given? We need to focus on anything/whatever is stopping us getting past 1st March- all the rest can wait for an inquest later…
 
Been following this as live in hampshire now and been a blue fan since I played for them as a kid until 18. First post on here and thought and hope the info below might be useful. Spoke with a commercial banker (best mates wife) who deals with similar stuff.

Said the legacy debt is terrible finance management (no shock there), as they have kicked it down the line hoping it would go away or a miracle finance would come in. Using Covid she said wasn’t an excuse as there were so many things to help.

Secondly she said the loan interest would be at least 10% and she read the statements by Ron (knows nothing about footie, and didn’t disclose who or what club it was, so completely impartial). She said even if the loan comes in, the risk further down the line is huge….. also said hardly any people would give the loan as run ins with hmrc and paye problems are huge red flags.

The land of roots hall and boots and laces would be used incase the worst happens. So if we do go busy Ron would lose it all….and go to the bank typically.

Obviously, we are all praying for the best. She did say the only way out typically of this is a new owner….
My mother’s best friends hairdresser’s daughter’s husband’s uncle is adamant that…
Just months ago CRBE refinanced a whole bundle of debt and everything you mention was true then to..
 
Time to pick this utter guff apart.


"once HMRC collapsed our time to pay agreement..."

 Typical RM deflection and "it's always someone else's fault, never mine". Even worse, it suggests a sense of exceptionalism and entitlement. He entered into a TTP with HMRC. The TTP had Ts&Cs attached, and possible punishment in the event of them being broken would have been clear. He broke the Ts&Cs. It doesn't matter how close to the end of the schedule it was - he entered into an agreement and didn't honour it, notwithstanding the fact he's been taking the **** out of HMRC for years anyway. Plenty of other clubs entered into TTP agreements with HMRC, but no other club but SUFC appears to have failed to fulfil theirs.


"...which meant the legacy debt which was nearly all accured during the pandemic when income was very limited with costs the same...combined with double relegations and a large reduction of central income this proved to be the perfect storm."

Was it also the perfect storm the other, what is it, 8 times that the club has been subject to winding-up petitions over the last 10 years? Or when Sainsbury's saved the club from being wound-up in 2009/10? Are we also forgetting the fact that the buck for the double relegations lies with you and the fact that you made a string of terrible managerial selections and took your eye off the ball with the football side of things as you became increasingly desperate for the Fossetts Farm plans to come to fruition?


"We will not let the club be wound up and there are reasonable prospects in train to meet the clubs cash needs in time but it will be close.....Raising the funds is my primary focus, we are advanced but not there yet but i am not a magician."

This message is contradictory. Either the club's cash needs are met or it is wound up. Why are the prospects only "reasonable"? If we assume that you are still pursuing a bridging loan (assumptions and conjectures are all we have since you don't have the decency to tell us what is actually going on), and you are adamant that you won't let the club be wound up, then what are your backup/contingency plans? What does "advanced but not there yet" mean and what is the hold up, especially since it seems to stuck at the same point it was stuck at back in October. We have a right to know more than you're letting on.


"Roots Hall is a cash pit, income once a fortnight for 9 months of the year has always meant it needs a beneficiary, for that reasonthe club will never be sustainable while it remains at Roots Hall."

Whilst there is a modicum of merit to this argument, let's not forget that you've contributed to Roots Hall becoming a "money pit". You've neglected it and let it rot, and you long ago gave up on trying anything new and inventive to get some extra revenue in on match days - and plenty of sound ideas from supporters have been scoffed at by the club's hierarchy. Some might say you took your eye off Roots Hall completely and put all focus on Fossetts.....others might suggest you knew what you were doing and have deliberately backed the club into a corner where it is literally your Fossetts plans or bust.


"The relocation plans will fix that for good allowing us to compete without the constant large cash cold when we get back in the EFL."

This is the hundredth time we've heard all this but there is still a lot of vagueness and secrecy around the extent to which the club will benefit from the new stadium with the current plans. Sure, any additional non-matchday income will be an improvement over the current situation, but where are the details about exactly what ancilliary facilities there will be and forecasts of how much income they could generate? Will it be enough to cover the current losses? What is break-even point forecast to be? Is there scope to expand/add to the facilities? This information, and its importance to the buy-in of the fanbase, has been forgotten and relegated down the priority list in favour of the housing element. Who is truly promoting the club's interests and future financial well-being, outside of your vague, empty references to unquantifiable additional revenue streams?


"However IF we can get past this current trauma the future for the club is bright."

"If" doesn' fill anybody with any confidence and if it is still an "if" at this lead time then you need to be thinking outside the box to get the WUP dismissed, even if that means conceding a slice of your ample half-a-billion £ pie.

Also, please stop deluding yourself that any future for SUFC with you in it is bright. The damage is done, there is too much water under the bridge for you to redeem yourself and this club will never fully drag its reputation out of the gutter and get the fresh start that it so badly needs whilst you are still here. The new stadium, especially without clarity regarding the extent to which SUFC will quantifiably benefit from it, is not enough to be a true light at the end of the tunnel. If you truly love the club then let it move on. Whatever happens on 1st March, you need to go.


"We are advanced with the council, perhaps a little slower than both the club and council wish but with a fair wind and continued support from the council we could be on site in the close season now that the training ground works are completed."

Woah, woah, woah, woah. What's with the "advanced with the council" and "could be on site in the close season"? I thought planning permission had been granted already? You have had us under the impression for ages now that the final key to unlocking the commencement of the stadium build is the vacation of B&L and the occupation of the new training facilities. Now you suggest that there are more hurdles to overcome with the council? So we've been misled. Again. If "a fair wind and continued support from the council" isn't enough to get the stadium build started at Fossetts in the close season, then how can we feel safe that it'll begin before your bridging finance (if successful in getting it) runs out and we're back in this same sorry position again? Shambles.
Absolutely bang on the money here.

This should be shared across all possible social media platforms for every Blues fan to read.

Very well said sir!!
 
Main says Martin has a conflict of interest: "How can he argue for the club, particularly against SEL, if he jointly owns SEL and his main interest is in making money from the property deal?"

He was a good bloke Main. Perhaps too nice and got **** on. A lot of stuff he said was right though.
Is John Main still about. I wonder what he makes of the current situation and his removal as chairman.

Would be a good interview that, as well as Tara Brady.
 
Thanks you for that, it's saved me some time this morning, composing a post that says the same thing. I had another thought concerning the seemingly eternal saga of the new stadium. In some ways the delays have worked out in our favour. Imagine if the original plans had gone through and that FF had been developed with it's commercial complex before the crash? Far from a vibrant centre It could now be an an unwelcoming desert of empty and boarded up shops, not bringing in the dreamed of revenue streams ( whoever they may have profited).
Revenue streams are irrelevant as they would never have been the club's. I agree, however, that having a stadium in the middle of a white elephant would have been a problem.
 
Ok devils advocate time. Let’s say Rob walks away now. What exactly would or could happen ? Hasn’t he been the only one to keep us afloat for all this time? If he leaves everything who would be fitting the bill?
 
Time to pick this utter guff apart.


"once HMRC collapsed our time to pay agreement..."

 Typical RM deflection and "it's always someone else's fault, never mine". Even worse, it suggests a sense of exceptionalism and entitlement. He entered into a TTP with HMRC. The TTP had Ts&Cs attached, and possible punishment in the event of them being broken would have been clear. He broke the Ts&Cs. It doesn't matter how close to the end of the schedule it was - he entered into an agreement and didn't honour it, notwithstanding the fact he's been taking the **** out of HMRC for years anyway. Plenty of other clubs entered into TTP agreements with HMRC, but no other club but SUFC appears to have failed to fulfil theirs.


"...which meant the legacy debt which was nearly all accured during the pandemic when income was very limited with costs the same...combined with double relegations and a large reduction of central income this proved to be the perfect storm."

Was it also the perfect storm the other, what is it, 8 times that the club has been subject to winding-up petitions over the last 10 years? Or when Sainsbury's saved the club from being wound-up in 2009/10? Are we also forgetting the fact that the buck for the double relegations lies with you and the fact that you made a string of terrible managerial selections and took your eye off the ball with the football side of things as you became increasingly desperate for the Fossetts Farm plans to come to fruition?


"We will not let the club be wound up and there are reasonable prospects in train to meet the clubs cash needs in time but it will be close.....Raising the funds is my primary focus, we are advanced but not there yet but i am not a magician."

This message is contradictory. Either the club's cash needs are met or it is wound up. Why are the prospects only "reasonable"? If we assume that you are still pursuing a bridging loan (assumptions and conjectures are all we have since you don't have the decency to tell us what is actually going on), and you are adamant that you won't let the club be wound up, then what are your backup/contingency plans? What does "advanced but not there yet" mean and what is the hold up, especially since it seems to stuck at the same point it was stuck at back in October. We have a right to know more than you're letting on.


"Roots Hall is a cash pit, income once a fortnight for 9 months of the year has always meant it needs a beneficiary, for that reasonthe club will never be sustainable while it remains at Roots Hall."

Whilst there is a modicum of merit to this argument, let's not forget that you've contributed to Roots Hall becoming a "money pit". You've neglected it and let it rot, and you long ago gave up on trying anything new and inventive to get some extra revenue in on match days - and plenty of sound ideas from supporters have been scoffed at by the club's hierarchy. Some might say you took your eye off Roots Hall completely and put all focus on Fossetts.....others might suggest you knew what you were doing and have deliberately backed the club into a corner where it is literally your Fossetts plans or bust.


"The relocation plans will fix that for good allowing us to compete without the constant large cash cold when we get back in the EFL."

This is the hundredth time we've heard all this but there is still a lot of vagueness and secrecy around the extent to which the club will benefit from the new stadium with the current plans. Sure, any additional non-matchday income will be an improvement over the current situation, but where are the details about exactly what ancilliary facilities there will be and forecasts of how much income they could generate? Will it be enough to cover the current losses? What is break-even point forecast to be? Is there scope to expand/add to the facilities? This information, and its importance to the buy-in of the fanbase, has been forgotten and relegated down the priority list in favour of the housing element. Who is truly promoting the club's interests and future financial well-being, outside of your vague, empty references to unquantifiable additional revenue streams?


"However IF we can get past this current trauma the future for the club is bright."

"If" doesn' fill anybody with any confidence and if it is still an "if" at this lead time then you need to be thinking outside the box to get the WUP dismissed, even if that means conceding a slice of your ample half-a-billion £ pie.

Also, please stop deluding yourself that any future for SUFC with you in it is bright. The damage is done, there is too much water under the bridge for you to redeem yourself and this club will never fully drag its reputation out of the gutter and get the fresh start that it so badly needs whilst you are still here. The new stadium, especially without clarity regarding the extent to which SUFC will quantifiably benefit from it, is not enough to be a true light at the end of the tunnel. If you truly love the club then let it move on. Whatever happens on 1st March, you need to go.


"We are advanced with the council, perhaps a little slower than both the club and council wish but with a fair wind and continued support from the council we could be on site in the close season now that the training ground works are completed."

Woah, woah, woah, woah. What's with the "advanced with the council" and "could be on site in the close season"? I thought planning permission had been granted already? You have had us under the impression for ages now that the final key to unlocking the commencement of the stadium build is the vacation of B&L and the occupation of the new training facilities. Now you suggest that there are more hurdles to overcome with the council? So we've been misled. Again. If "a fair wind and continued support from the council" isn't enough to get the stadium build started at Fossetts in the close season, then how can we feel safe that it'll begin before your bridging finance (if successful in getting it) runs out and we're back in this same sorry position again? Shambles.

As Blue43 said, this should be passed to as many media outlets for publication as possible and definitely printed word for word by The Echo at the very least. Utterly superb post.....
 
”Advanced with the Council” is likely to mean consent from SBC to the numerous pre-commencement Planning Conditions that must be discharged before starting on site. The Planning Officer has up to 12 weeks to consider the condition submission from date of validation.

From memory there are some sizeable up front S.106 Contributions to SBC prior to commencing. Let’s hope they‘re being funded by the Development Partner, and not Ron!
 
”Advanced with the Council” is likely to mean consent from SBC to the numerous pre-commencement Planning Conditions that must be discharged before starting on site. The Planning Officer has up to 12 weeks to consider the condition submission from date of validation.

From memory there are some sizeable up front S.106 Contributions to SBC prior to commencing. Let’s hope they‘re being funded by the Development Partner, and not Ron!
He needs to be forthcoming and open about that then. "Advanced with the council" is the line we kept hearing when he was in discussions with them before the application for planning permission was submitted so using that line again makes the current picture sound like a backwards step, and he's painted the picture recently that the sole remaining barrier to the stadium build starting is the club vacating Boots & Laces. This picture is clearly misleading.
 
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