Gaza

[MK Shrimper]

All supplies entering into Gaza should be monitored by the UN if it isn't already and these tunnels should be destroyed as soon as they are discovered. Oh, and on a personal belief of stamping on the problem, for every rocket launched at Israel then Israel is allowed to retaliate with 100 tank shells. Hamas will get the message sooner or later.

Sadly they won't and more innocent Palestinians will suffer.

 

[londonblue]

All supplies entering into Gaza should be monitored by the UN if it isn't already and these tunnels should be destroyed as soon as they are discovered. Oh, and on a personal belief of stamping on the problem, for every rocket launched at Israel then Israel is allowed to retaliate with 100 tank shells. Hamas will get the message sooner or later.

Out of interest, do you know how Israel found out about these tunnels, and what their intended purpose was?

They found out during this latest round of fighting during interrogation of captured Hamas terrorists. They had no idea they were there before. Believe it or not, the cement used to build them came from Israel. The Palestinians (Hamas) requested it to build infrastructure (see one of my very early posts).

Some of the tunnels actually come very close to Israeli communities and were intended to be used in a coordinated attack on Israeli citizens. The intention was to infiltrate Kibbutzim nurseries etc in order to murder Israelis, including children, and kidnap as many Israelis as possible. In that respect the fighting has probably saved many Israeli lives.

As I said in one of my earliest posts, one of the things that could be done to try and resolve the issues would be for Hamas to spend money on infrastructure rather than on rockets. At that point I wasn't aware of any tunnels. As it turns out, not only are they spending money on rockets rather than buildings, they're even using the raw materials supplied to them to further their terrorist ideals.

With the amount of cement used for just one tunnel Hamas could have built:

86 Homes
7 Mosques
6 Schools
19 Medical clinics

Multiply that by the number of tunnels and you see how the citizens of Gaza have been treated by their leadership. You could call Israel naive for allowing them the cement in the first place, but they were under a lot of international pressure to do so. The problem now is whether Israel will be prepared to take the risk in future. Once bitten, twice shy and all that...

There really ought to be a "Free Gaza" campaign. However it really needs to be freed from Hamas.

 

[Benfleet A1]

Out of interest, do you know how Israel found out about these tunnels, and what their intended purpose was?

They found out during this latest round of fighting during interrogation of captured Hamas terrorists. They had no idea they were there before. Believe it or not, the cement used to build them came from Israel. The Palestinians (Hamas) requested it to build infrastructure (see one of my very early posts).

Some of the tunnels actually come very close to Israeli communities and were intended to be used in a coordinated attack on Israeli citizens. The intention was to infiltrate Kibbutzim nurseries etc in order to murder Israelis, including children, and kidnap as many Israelis as possible. In that respect the fighting has probably saved many Israeli lives.

As I said in one of my earliest posts, one of the things that could be done to try and resolve the issues would be for Hamas to spend money on infrastructure rather than on rockets. At that point I wasn't aware of any tunnels. As it turns out, not only are they spending money on rockets rather than buildings, they're even using the raw materials supplied to them to further their terrorist ideals.

With the amount of cement used for just one tunnel Hamas could have built:

86 Homes
7 Mosques
6 Schools
19 Medical clinics

Multiply that by the number of tunnels and you see how the citizens of Gaza have been treated by their leadership. You could call Israel naive for allowing them the cement in the first place, but they were under a lot of international pressure to do so. The problem now is whether Israel will be prepared to take the risk in future. Once bitten, twice shy and all that...

There really ought to be a "Free Gaza" campaign. However it really needs to be freed from Hamas.

Yes, I had heard about the cement being supplied by Israel before, I think Rusty mentioned it in a earlier post. I'm a firm believer in Israels right to defend it's self and although their tactics may seem harsh to many, I don't really have a problem with it. I would expect nothing less if it was the UK being attacked and would hope our response would be every bit as hard.

I always remember something my father used to say when a IRA bomb would go off or a solider was killed. He would say that if this happened in Israel then there would be tanks in Lebanon the next day. When was the last time Lebanon started getting all warlike?

 

[londonblue]

Yes, I had heard about the cement being supplied by Israel before, I think Rusty mentioned it in a earlier post. I'm a firm believer in Israels right to defend it's self and although their tactics may seem harsh to many, I don't really have a problem with it. I would expect nothing less if it was the UK being attacked and would hope our response would be every bit as hard.

I always remember something my father used to say when a IRA bomb would go off or a solider was killed. He would say that if this happened in Israel then there would be tanks in Lebanon the next day. When was the last time Lebanon started getting all warlike?

According to Wikipedia Lebanon hasn't attacked Israel with rockets since the July 2014, i.e. last month! (Don't assume it isn't happening if you don't hear about it. It just took a quick google to find out.)

However, according to this, it wasn't Hizbollah!

Lebanon

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

That is simply not true, and was dealt with in the wiki page I provided a link to earlier. It seems to me that you're not reading the items that don't agree with your view.

It's true all right.It's what I was told by kibuttzniks at the time,in public meetings and privately.

Why would they have lied to me (and others)?

 

[londonblue]

It's true all right.It's what I was told by kibuttzniks at the time,in public meetings and privately.

Why would they have lied to me (and others)?

It's a distortion of the truth since this issue was dealt with in the peace negotiations as per the wiki page I provided a link to. It might be worth you reading it.

It may have been the case at the time, but if Arafat would have signed the peace treaty all these people would have been compensated, and I'm sure any future peace settlement (I'm still an optimist by the way) will also revisit this.

 

[Benfleet A1]

According to Wikipedia Lebanon hasn't attacked Israel with rockets since the July 2014, i.e. last month! (Don't assume it isn't happening if you don't hear about it. It just took a quick google to find out.)

However, according to this, it wasn't Hizbollah!

Lebanon

Ah, now there was something else I didn't know. As you say, very selective reporting.

 

[steveo]

Sadly they won't and more innocent Palestinians will suffer.

True that. It seems they like to see their people getting killed so they have something to blame their next attacks on.

 

[Pubey]

True that. It seems they like to see their people getting killed so they have something to blame their next attacks on.

Hamas might but can we get away from confusing Hamas = Palestine. The power of Hamas has no doubt increased with these indiscriminate attacks. Show some compassion and mercy and their support will collapse, which is pretty much the only way to get rid of the terrorists. Hamas have focussed on the opposition to Israel, rather than the focus on supporting the rights of Palestinians.

 

[londonblue]

Hamas might but can we get away from confusing Hamas = Palestine. The power of Hamas has no doubt increased with these indiscriminate attacks. Show some compassion and mercy and their support will collapse, which is pretty much the only way to get rid of the terrorists. Hamas have focussed on the opposition to Israel, rather than the focus on supporting the rights of Palestinians.

Why would Hamas' indiscriminate attacks on Israel increase their power?

If you mean indiscriminate attacks by Israel I would point out that that is your opinion, so please don't use the term as if it is an agreed fact. It isn't. In fact, the only (neutral) person that seems to know what he is talking about completely refutes that suggestion.

 

[Pubey]

Why would Hamas' indiscriminate attacks on Israel increase their power?

If you mean indiscriminate attacks by Israel I would point out that that is your opinion, so please don't use the term as if it is an agreed fact. It isn't. In fact the only person that seems to know what he is talking about completely refutes that suggestion.

Yes I mean by Israel. I didn't claim anything as a fact. Whatever you want to call it, Israel shells hitting 'targets' full of civilians and killing hundreds is IMO deplorable and a war crime. If you can't avoid civilian casualties, then don't fire the missiles/shells etc. If you can avoid civilians and destroy those guilty of firing rockets at Israel then fine, be my guest.

 

[londonblue]

Why would Hamas' indiscriminate attacks on Israel increase their power?

If you mean indiscriminate attacks by Israel I would point out that that is your opinion, so please don't use the term as if it is an agreed fact. It isn't. In fact, the only (neutral) person that seems to know what he is talking about completely refutes that suggestion.

My understanding is that most Gazans don't support Hamas anymore, but you won't hear that because they're too scared to say so. I have no intention of posting on here the pictures I saw, one of a group of "collaborators" being hanged and another of another group of people who had been beheaded. It is against this backdrop of intimidation that Gazans live.

 

[Pubey]

My understanding is that most Gazans don't support Hamas anymore, but you won't hear that because they're too scared to say so. I have no intention of posting on here the pictures I saw, one of a group of "collaborators" being hanged and another of another group of people who had been beheaded. It is against this backdrop of intimidation that Gazans live.

Completely agree. Makes their situation even more devastatingly sad.

 

[londonblue]

Yes I mean by Israel. I didn't claim anything as a fact. Whatever you want to call it, Israel shells hitting 'targets' full of civilians and killing hundreds is IMO deplorable and a war crime. If you can't avoid civilian casualties, then don't fire the missiles/shells etc. If you can avoid civilians and destroy those guilty of firing rockets at Israel then fine, be my guest.

Then you don't know the law and what constitutes a war crime. Which also implies you didn't read the link.

 

[Pubey]

Then you don't know the law and what constitutes a war crime. Which also implies you didn't read the link.

What link? This thread is full of links, some I've read and some I haven't. There's no need to be passive-aggressive.

From my understanding, a war crime is when the civilian casualties from an attack are 'excessive' compared to the gain in military advantage gained from the attack.

Seeing as it's very hard to know if the attacks have reduced the power of Hamas, in particular because rockets continue to be fired back, then I'd personally say (without all the facts I admit) that Israel are guilty of war crimes because UN-designated shelters should not be the direct or neighbouring target, especially when the military gain is no more than a few rockets.

I'm going to stop posting in this thread I think because the whole thing is just circular and I don't think anyone is really finding their views changed.

 

[londonblue]

What link? This thread is full of links, some I've read and some I haven't. There's no need to be passive-aggressive.

From my understanding, a war crime is when the civilian casualties from an attack are 'excessive' compared to the gain in military advantage gained from the attack.

Seeing as it's very hard to know if the attacks have reduced the power of Hamas, in particular because rockets continue to be fired back, then I'd personally say (without all the facts I admit) that Israel are guilty of war crimes because UN-designated shelters should not be the direct or neighbouring target, especially when the military gain is no more than a few rockets.

I'm going to stop posting in this thread I think because the whole thing is just circular and I don't think anyone is really finding their views changed.

The one from this post:

Have a read of this by Colonel Richard Kemp, who happens to be a very highly experienced retired soldier from the British Army. It's always good to get an expert's opinion, rather than just assume we know what we're talking about:

The truth about Gaza’s civilian casualties: Essay by Col. Richard Kemp

Of course, most people will dismiss this because it doesn't fit in with their anti-Israel agenda.

Of course no-one will believe this either:

Hamas rockets, not the IDF, killed children

Apologies if it came over as aggressive. I was on the phone complaining about poor service from John Lewis at the time, and wasn't able to concentrate on, and re-read what I wrote.

(Please read the "What is hacking you off" and "What is making you happy" threads in a about an hour when I've got off the conference call I'm currently on, and have had a chance to post...)

 

[A Century United]

[video=youtube_share;D_cAFbHZNcU]http://youtu.be/D_cAFbHZNcU[/video]

 

[steveo]

Israel shells hitting 'targets' full of civilians and killing hundreds is IMO deplorable and a war crime. If you can't avoid civilian casualties, then don't fire the missiles/shells etc. .

But if the missiles are being fired from populated areas what do you do then? Let them continue to shell your country, and lets be fair if they were better at it they wouldnt hesitate to kill as many Israelis as possible.

 

[Pubey]

But if the missiles are being fired from populated areas what do you do then? Let them continue to shell your country, and lets be fair if they were better at it they wouldnt hesitate to kill as many Israelis as possible.

Yes. You focus on alternative methods to neutralise the threat, in particular with an international backing. You also develop better defenses, which Israel has done.

It doesn't matter about if they were better at it, they are what they are (mainly homemade rockets which have lead to 28 deaths in 13 years). The response should be proportionate to the threat that Hamas offer.

Again, this is just a repetition of earlier posts/debates.

 

[A Century United]

Yes. You focus on alternative methods to neutralise the threat, in particular with an international backing. You also develop better defenses, which Israel has done.

It doesn't matter about if they were better at it, they are what they are (mainly homemade rockets which have lead to 28 deaths in 13 years). The response should be proportionate to the threat that Hamas offer.

Again, this is just a repetition of earlier posts/debates.

No they aren't. They are production-line military grade weapons. I do urge you to read the article by Colonel Richard Kemp, who is a genuine authority on terrorism, which londonblue linked to. Does it not worry you that not once on the BBC have I heard any reference to Hamas casualties as opposed to "Civilians"? That the figures quoted are completely unverified by any independent body and are produced by Hamas themselves? That the fact that the majority of "Civilians" killed have been men of fighting age?

The Truth About Gaza's Civilian Casualties