Game of Thrones S5 - Discussion Thread

[Pubey]

My issue is that throughout we've had loads of really nasty **** happen and early on that's ok. Red Wedding, Craster, Joffery, Cersei being raped, Sansa being raped, Dany being raped, Bran being pushed out of the window, Rats for torture.

Some are horrible things happening to bad people, some to good people, some to innocent people. The world has been built, and characters fleshed out (except for Theon and the victims of the Boltons). We know some who are good people, some who are awful people, and many who are shades of grey.

Some characters have good arcs so far in their development/journey/quest (Jon Snow, Dany, Tyrion), and some don't (Arya, Sansa, Stannis, Littlefinger, Jaime - if they are suddenly resolved then that doesn't take away that their plots for the last 1 or 2 seasons have been dull, and their characters constantly alter in incredulous ways). Not everything can be pawn-moving for the final season, or characters treading water until they're needed. Their decisions and movements need to make sense and provide entertainment (and entertainment can be nasty and shocking, as long as it contributes something)

It seems like the show now has Dany set up where it needed her - She can control her dragon(s), she has trusted and sensible advisers and fighters, and she has probably got a grip on the Harpes (although the Unsulled seem proper **** now), and so maybe some other things can progress properly - Winterfell, King's Landing, Dorne, Arya, Sansa etc.

But while things have slowly changed in one area of Westeros, we continue to have the show packed out with nasty-filler. I like gritty realism and am not one to avoid nasty stuff, but it is testing the boundaries on what entertainment is. The discussion after Stannis' BBQ between Tyrion, Dany et al at the games was a less than subtle wink at this dilemma.

If the whole show is about a new world order involving Dany, Tyrion, Jon Snow, maybe wheelchair Dorne man who are more liberal, pragmatic, and less war-hungry than the previous lords and kings, then that is a sensible arc (might disappoint the fan-boys), but it would be nice to see those character's getting some success, rather than it being revenge-based e.g. Arya, Sansa (maybe) etc.

 

[Jam_Man]

Mentioned in reference to this show before, but I think my reaction to certain scenes is different now to what it might have been five years ago. Daft I know - it's a tv show with dragons and zombies for ****s sake - but there you go.

That certainly is the case, as a father I certainly have a different outlook on lots of things now as you relate to things on a different level. Theres a similar scene on Sons of Anarchy I saw the other night that affected me a lot (although the daughter was an adult).

However whilst I find these scense hard to stomach as long as they form part of a story arch thats fine by me. Westeros is a nasty place and thats part of what makes the story what it is.

 

[Ricky Otto]

That certainly is the case, as a father I certainly have a different outlook on lots of things now as you relate to things on a different level. Theres a similar scene on Sons of Anarchy I saw the other night that affected me a lot (although the daughter was an adult).

However whilst I find these scense hard to stomach as long as they form part of a story arch thats fine by me. Westeros is a nasty place and thats part of what makes the story what it is.

Tigs daughter?

 

[GBJ]

But the tortured screams of a teenage girl being burnt to death? Could have done without that.

I'm with UL (perhaps as we're fathers?) that the death of Shireen was far to much and unwatchable. Sansa's rape, as nasty as it was, paled in comparison.

Thats fair. Each to their own I guess, I just wasn't/aren't fazed by it. Same as all the other nasty stuff that happens on the show, It doesn't register with me on a personal level, mainly because, (and I can only stress I'm not being facetious here) it's just a TV programme.

In relation to the story itself, it's debatable whether it was necessary. Personally I don't think it was totally needed, but I'm not mad at it either. Stannis has been lined up now to be the desperate, head's-gone, win-at-all-costs, figure, who's also a bit monstrous. If that helps the future plot, then fair play. I mean, what better way to make a man look desperate (& slightly losing his marbles, due to that desperarion) than to portray him as susceptible to a bit of mind warping by the sexy witch & brutally murdering his own daughter?

Welcome to the rambling world of George RR Martin!

Should be appreciative the TV shows are a cut down version. There is a lot of characters not included who I wonder if they server any purpose at all, there were loads introduced in the last book that the TV show has completely ignored.

Its like Bran, what exactly has been the point? he wanders around a bit and ends up in some weird place with a tree man. Im sure there are plans for him to play a part in the plot at sometime, but his whole arc has been one borefest to get to where he is.

Dont think I'd have the concentration levels for the books tbh. I imagine there's a lot of good bits to them, but the dull bits would be a struggle to power through.

IIRC, the kid that plays Bran took this season off, to study & take his GCSE's I think, that's why he's been excluded from the show so far. But I do agree, his story is dragging

 

[MK Shrimper]

Thats fair. Each to their own I guess, I just wasn't/aren't fazed by it. Same as all the other nasty stuff that happens on the show, It doesn't register with me on a personal level, mainly because, (and I can only stress I'm not being facetious here) it's just a TV programme.

With the best fiction, be it film/TV/books etc, you feel an emotional bond with the characters, and Stannis was a good(ish) father.

 

[GBJ]

With the best fiction, be it film/TV/books etc, you feel an emotional bond with the characters, and Stannis was a good(ish) father.

That's the point, it's a proper classic, WWF heel-turn, but it needed something drastic to really cement it IMO. I think all this time Stannis was being portrayed, as leaning more towards being a baby face, than a heel. But with this sudden character change, it must be heading somewhere worthwhile, which makes the daughter BBQ, relevant.

 

[Pubey]

Thats fair. Each to their own I guess, I just wasn't/aren't fazed by it. Same as all the other nasty stuff that happens on the show, It doesn't register with me on a personal level, mainly because, (and I can only stress I'm not being facetious here) it's just a TV programme.

In relation to the story itself, it's debatable whether it was necessary. Personally I don't think it was totally needed, but I'm not mad at it either. Stannis has been lined up now to be the desperate, head's-gone, win-at-all-costs, figure, who's also a bit monstrous. If that helps the future plot, then fair play. I mean, what better way to make a man look desperate (& slightly losing his marbles, due to that desperarion) than to portray him as susceptible to a bit of mind warping by the sexy witch & brutally murdering his own daughter?



Dont think I'd have the concentration levels for the books tbh. I imagine there's a lot of good bits to them, but the dull bits would be a struggle to power through.

IIRC, the kid that plays Bran took this season off, to study & take his GCSE's I think, that's why he's been excluded from the show so far. But I do agree, his story is dragging

2 years ago and I would have found the point I'm about to make as really trite and disrespectful, but now I'm a father hearing a screaming young child pleading "father, please" is pretty harrowing.

The idea of your child dying and you being completely helpless is pretty much the worst thing you can imagine.

The idea of a child dying and a parent being able to stop it, but not, is pretty much the sickest thing you can imagine.

I know it's not nice when someone says "you don't understand, you're not a parent", and that's not what I'm saying here - I completely understand why the scene will resonate more with some people and less with others, and as you say, each to your own. But just because it's a TV show and not real doesn't mean that people won't automatically imagine themselves in that situation or draw that parallel. The writers are smart and will know this, which is why people are rightly upset with it being cheap shock tactics. Will people switch off from watching, I'm not sure - I've invested time in GoT and there's many parts I enjoy. But it's right to criticise and discuss what is necessary, what is entertainment, and what is cheap and unnecessarily nasty.

We'll just have to wait and see how it pans out, as JamMan says.

 

[Pubey]

With the best fiction, be it film/TV/books etc, you feel an emotional bond with the characters, and Stannis was a good(ish) father.

Was a good(ish) father but a **** husband, brother and leader.

That's the point, it's a proper classic, WWF heel-turn, but it needed something drastic to really cement it IMO. I think all this time Stannis was being portrayed, as leaning more towards being a baby face, than a heel. But with this sudden character change, it must be heading somewhere worthwhile, which makes the daughter BBQ, relevant.

There's only so many WWF heel-turns that you can take before you grow up and realise WWF is for children and virgins :winking::smile:

 

[MK Shrimper]

2 years ago and I would have found the point I'm about to make as really trite and disrespectful, but now I'm a father hearing a screaming young child pleading "father, please" is pretty harrowing.

The idea of your child dying and you being completely helpless is pretty much the worst thing you can imagine.

The idea of a child dying and a parent being able to stop it, but not, is pretty much the sickest thing you can imagine.

I know it's not nice when someone says "you don't understand, you're not a parent", and that's not what I'm saying here - I completely understand why the scene will resonate more with some people and less with others, and as you say, each to your own. But just because it's a TV show and not real doesn't mean that people won't automatically imagine themselves in that situation or draw that parallel. The writers are smart and will know this, which is why people are rightly upset with it being cheap shock tactics. Will people switch off from watching, I'm not sure - I've invested time in GoT and there's many parts I enjoy. But it's right to criticise and discuss what is necessary, what is entertainment, and what is cheap and unnecessarily nasty.

We'll just have to wait and see how it pans out, as JamMan says.

I want to "like" this post, but at the same time I can't like it. Thinking back to Monday's scene is making me shiver (still).

 

[Jam_Man]

Tigs daughter?

Yep thats the one, pretty disturbing

Dont think I'd have the concentration levels for the books tbh. I imagine there's a lot of good bits to them, but the dull bits would be a struggle to power through.

IIRC, the kid that plays Bran took this season off, to study & take his GCSE's I think, that's why he's been excluded from the show so far. But I do agree, his story is dragging

The books are good, but if you think the show has been slow this season then its nothing compared to the books which I do feel have become rambling. Think the TV guys realised this hence Hardhome was in the shows, which doenst happen in the books (yet at least).

Bran's storyline is up todate from the last book so nothing else for him to have done, although if they are already using material from the next book could have done something with him, but his whole storyline has always felt like and add on.

 

[Ricky Otto]

Yep thats the one, pretty disturbing

.

Yeah that one is more disturbing than the GOT burning IMO, think it's the whole father not being able to help that got me.

 

[GBJ]

2 years ago and I would have found the point I'm about to make as really trite and disrespectful, but now I'm a father hearing a screaming young child pleading "father, please" is pretty harrowing.

The idea of your child dying and you being completely helpless is pretty much the worst thing you can imagine.

The idea of a child dying and a parent being able to stop it, but not, is pretty much the sickest thing you can imagine.

I know it's not nice when someone says "you don't understand, you're not a parent", and that's not what I'm saying here - I completely understand why the scene will resonate more with some people and less with others, and as you say, each to your own. But just because it's a TV show and not real doesn't mean that people won't automatically imagine themselves in that situation or draw that parallel. The writers are smart and will know this, which is why people are rightly upset with it being cheap shock tactics. Will people switch off from watching, I'm not sure - I've invested time in GoT and there's many parts I enjoy. But it's right to criticise and discuss what is necessary, what is entertainment, and what is cheap and unnecessarily nasty.

We'll just have to wait and see how it pans out, as JamMan says.

I think, at the end of the day, we're at opposite sides of the spectrum on this, probably, due to our own personal lives. Those who are fathers, I respect your opinions as your own, but I can't share them, as I'm not in your boat. Maybe I would, if I were, but hey ho.

I understand what you're saying about people drawing parallels, & people placing themselves in that situation, I can imagine it's not very pleasant to consider, I mean that genuinely.

But c'mon, you can't really keep blaming the show? Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you, or anyone of the other few thousand who were affected by the issue, what to do. But surely if you're so appalled with it, then why watch it? From the very 1st episode, the writers set their stall out to produce an incredibly violent, potentially disturbing drama. From the very first episode we had decapitation, incest & the attempted murder of a child. It seems a bit hypocritical to then complain, If/when they go "too far" with a storyline, just because it can be related to your personal life.

I'm just saying, if it was me who'd been deeply upset/disturbed/shocked/angered by it, & I knew what kind of show it was, I probably wouldn't watch it anymore.

The same thing happened with the Sansa rape storyline. Lots of people complained & said it was distressing, unnecessary etc etc etc. But those same people went on to complain that the little girl being grilled was distressing & unnecessary!! What does it take, for an individual to realise that this show is/always has been/always will be shocking, distressing & violent & if that's not their bag, then maybe the show isn't for them (anymore).
And even though I don't know the future storylines, I'd hazard a guess and says there's still plenty more controversy & distressing, unnecessary scenes to come.


So the million dollar question is; will you be watching the season finale, next week, despite the knowledge that potentially violent, distressing scenes, could be served up?

 

[RHB]

So the million dollar question is; will you be watching the season finale, next week, despite the knowledge that potentially violent, distressing scenes, could be served up?

I'll be there, bring it on. I bought a Now box for this series as I was brassed off with waiting for the DVD sets as birthday/Xmas presents. I've paid for it and will not be denied a minute of it.

 

[Uncle Leo]

So the million dollar question is; will you be watching the season finale, next week, despite the knowledge that potentially violent, distressing scenes, could be served up?

Yes, I will. And I'll also watch the 2022 World Cup even though I'm totally opposed to it being held in Qatar.

All mouth no trousers :smile:

 

[Pubey]

I think, at the end of the day, we're at opposite sides of the spectrum on this, probably, due to our own personal lives. Those who are fathers, I respect your opinions as your own, but I can't share them, as I'm not in your boat. Maybe I would, if I were, but hey ho.

I understand what you're saying about people drawing parallels, & people placing themselves in that situation, I can imagine it's not very pleasant to consider, I mean that genuinely.

But c'mon, you can't really keep blaming the show? Look, don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you, or anyone of the other few thousand who were affected by the issue, what to do. But surely if you're so appalled with it, then why watch it? From the very 1st episode, the writers set their stall out to produce an incredibly violent, potentially disturbing drama. From the very first episode we had decapitation, incest & the attempted murder of a child. It seems a bit hypocritical to then complain, If/when they go "too far" with a storyline, just because it can be related to your personal life.

I'm just saying, if it was me who'd been deeply upset/disturbed/shocked/angered by it, & I knew what kind of show it was, I probably wouldn't watch it anymore.

The same thing happened with the Sansa rape storyline. Lots of people complained & said it was distressing, unnecessary etc etc etc. But those same people went on to complain that the little girl being grilled was distressing & unnecessary!! What does it take, for an individual to realise that this show is/always has been/always will be shocking, distressing & violent & if that's not their bag, then maybe the show isn't for them (anymore).
And even though I don't know the future storylines, I'd hazard a guess and says there's still plenty more controversy & distressing, unnecessary scenes to come.


So the million dollar question is; will you be watching the season finale, next week, despite the knowledge that potentially violent, distressing scenes, could be served up?

The fundamental issue is that if there are distressing and upsetting scenes, are there there to advance the story in some way? We can't really fully answer that until the end of the show. I also think we should ggive the writers a little bit of grace because they're working with an unfinished and complex story that deals with challenging issues. However I still feel that some scenes have been unnecessary because they don't really fit with the arc of the characters up to that point, at least as it stands. So we can only wait and see as to what happens.

Just because you find something upsetting and thing it's unnecessary, but then continue to watch it, doesn't make you a hypocrite. The majority of the show is great, I just wish it didn't so quickly and regularly drop into shock mode because it gets predictable and cheap. IMO anyway.

Like with the original Bran/Jaime stuff. i wasn't particularly disturbed by the plot - I (like many) thought, oh it'll be good to see how the Starks go about getting revenge/seeking justice. But then the plot shifted again, highlighting the the nobility/honour of the Starks was of little value in Westeros, and the sense of justice or revenge was likely to be a long game. So that's fine that those scenes developed the scope and plot of the story. But each time you try to shock someone the effect lessens and the frustration increases, especially the violence against women which should be treated with care and respect.

Just because horrible stuff regularly happens in the world of Westeros doesn't mean that it needs to be so routinuely shown in the show, when we already have 5 seasons full of nasty things to know that the world and what certain characters are about. Ramsey is the perfect example of this - literally hours dedicated to him being a complete ****, and to what end? The Theon stuff was unbelievably boring, as well as a grim prolonged torture scene.

Now Ramsey is somehow a ninja who can sneak into the camp of Stannis and destroy, who up until then we're lead to believe is some amazing army general. Maybe less willy-lopping, and more character development of Ramsey would have been interesting and meant that the recent moments made more sense. Instead it currently feels that the payoff is Sansa or Theon getting revenge, which feels like a cop-out. GoT is bigger than revenge, as we're often told (ask the pizza-head of Oberyn!).

 

[Jam_Man]

Now Ramsey is somehow a ninja who can sneak into the camp of Stannis and destroy, who up until then we're lead to believe is some amazing army general. Maybe less willy-lopping, and more character development of Ramsey would have been interesting and meant that the recent moments made more sense. Instead it currently feels that the payoff is Sansa or Theon getting revenge, which feels like a cop-out. GoT is bigger than revenge, as we're often told (ask the pizza-head of Oberyn!).

The Ramsey ninja event doesnt happen in the books, they just get bogged down in snow and over time its the weather that causes them the problems, which wouldnt make good TV.

I think the ninja attack is purely a story telling device to speed up the plight Stannis finds himself in.

 

[GBJ]

Just because you find something upsetting and thing it's unnecessary, but then continue to watch it, doesn't make you a hypocrite. The majority of the show is great, I just wish it didn't so quickly and regularly drop into shock mode because it gets predictable and cheap. IMO anyway.

But it is slightly hypocritical to complain about shock tactics, when it was those similar shock tactics, that made the show so gripping. Again, going back to the opening episode, attempted child murder, people having heads lopped off & incest were all shock tactics. Those events made people sit up & take notice and undoubtedly helped create the fanbase the show has now. So IMHO, it is then slightly hypocritical to complain about the same formula they've used from the start, just because the latest shock tactic stirs up feelings which are a little close to home.

But each time you try to shock someone the effect lessens and the frustration increases, especially the violence against women which should be treated with care and respect.

just because horrible stuff regularly happens in the world of Westeros doesn't mean that it needs to be so routinuely shown in the show

I agree the writers have to be careful not to outdo themselves. Shock tactics always have a limited shelf life. But the picture of this fictional world, from the outset, was painted as one of despair, desperation, degradation & disregard. To keep the storylines entertaining, interesting & on course with the origional idea, they've got to tread a fine line between showing enough of these acts of violence & brutality, but not over using them.

And for season 5, I think they've done well in that respect. It's not every episode there's shock tactics. Infact, despite the Sansa & Little girl scenes, I can't actually recall much gratuious violence, let alone shock tactics, in the season so far.

 

[Mad Cyril]

Do not read the article on the BBC website if you want to avoid any massive ****ing spoilers.

Cheers BBC.

 

[Jam_Man]

Mailonline has basically broken down the whole episode word for word too.

 

[southendkid]

If you have Sky Go or have your Sky Box connected to the internet then you can stream or download the finale as of last night, which may be why the BBC posted spoilers, they may have not have realised Sky release the 'catch up' broadcast before they actually show it on TV.