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Thanks first to brigadista, for a thought-provoking first foray onto these boards. However, one thing ought to be cleared up: the notion that Ron "got the club for next to nothing". I don't think that's right at all.

People seem to forget that our current woes trace back entirely to the mid-1990s - and specifically to the Whelan-Chipmunk stewardship of the club (at a time when Vic was fighting a losing battle with cancer - hence with no one properly running the club from a financial point of view). We signed players on ruinously high wages (e.g. Boere on - supposedly - £3,500/wk basic... and that was in the mid 90s!), whilst gates were dwindling below 5,000 as we commenced our seemingly inexorable slide down the table.

When SEL (half Delancey, half Martin Dawn) bought out Vic's 76% shareholding, they not only paid a healthy sum (about £4m?), but they bought a club with at least £4m of debt - and rising. John Main did nothing to halt that decline - players wages alone were, infamously, 123% of turnover during his stint (and that's before we account for the £150k paid to Peter Storrie - what for, exactly, I've never understood).

By the time of our first appearance at the door of the Winders Court in 2000, we were a club that was already substantially broke. Where Ron Martin can be criticised is that he has done nothing to improve that situation. Instead, he has taken on some very substantial liabilities (e.g. the finance to buy out Delancey's half-share of the club), he has spent a lot of money on some expensive architects and planning consultants... and all seemingly predicated on a business plan where he would always be able to obtain a ready stream of working capital from external sources.

This we all know, and we've talked about numerous times. So, what's the point in repeating it? Well:

1. We shouldn't trick ourselves into thinking that, somehow, Ron is the problem and that the panacea is to remove him. Ron clearly is a problem. But our club was screwed long before him, and is likely to be for some time afterwards if/when he goes.

2. Ron - through a sophisticated (tangled?) web of sub- and offshore-companies - has already spent and invested a lot of money in this club. Brigadista - what makes you think that somehow he'd simply walk away? Administration, or a CVA, wouldn't change a thing. He'd still be the largest single creditor. He'd still call the shots, and we'd still have to deal with him.

3. Liquidation wouldn't be a great solution either. We would have to rename the club (he'd probably own the intellectual property in the club badge and the club name) - we'd have to become AFC Southend, and re-start at the bottom of the footballing pyramid. It would be 10-15 years before we were even close to the league - and I imagine we'd have lost a lot of our fanbase along the way. FC United is linked to Manchester United, one of the largest football clubs in the world; and AFC Wimbledon is linked to a former Premier League club in a place that was always a hotbed of football fan-dom. Southend is neither of those things. What makes you think the club would survive at all, let alone in anything like its current form?

* * *

Don't get me wrong - I believe Ron has acted in a shabby, shameful manner in the last year. He has peddled half-truths and misinformation; he has strangled the club of cashflow; he has failed to pay the players; he has treated the fans with disdain; he alone set the club on course for relegation through his actions; and he continues to act like some sort of risible pocket Napoleon. He is a total bloody embarrassment, of that there can be no doubt.

But the way I see it, the choice we face now is to stick with him - since he is determined to make his supermarket deal - or to face oblivion. If the club can survive for long enough to see us in a new stadium - one in which, perhaps, we might have a chance of growing the fanbase - then there may yet be a future for this club.

Maybe we are, ultimately, doomed - even if we move. Maybe relegation and penury beckons. But there remains a chance that things will turn out OK - we'll stay in the league, and we'll prosper. A slim chance, but a chance nonetheless.

If we all boycott the home games, however, then we have no chance - it's liquidation, and 15+ years of obscurity while we scrape together the money to buy a plot of land, build a stadium and work our way back up the footballing pyramid from the bottom. You'll forgive me if I don't think that that looks like a terribly appealing prospect.

If we support the club (and its unappealing current chairman) we have a chance. If we boycott it, we don't. That's how I see it; and that's why I'll be at Roots Hall on 7th August, cheering on the boys (and saving an especially loud cheer for Anthony Grant).

Matt

thank you for a decent and well put reply on this thread. Fundamentally, I would prefer a southend owned and run by the fans, in which all the money goes back into the club, the team and the staff (and not the scandalous sacking of the kids in the summer), and not one man's coffers. Other people clearly have the view that they do not care who or why the club is run by as long as they get to watch championship football. If you cling to that dream then I think you will forever delude yourself and should look at what you actually turn up at the hall for. If it's just to watch a team win, then you might as well save the time and money and watch it on the box.

With regard to the future, could you point out how FF is our FUTURE? I believe the estimates are £30m to build. How will the club ever finance or clear that debt? and what is so wrong with Roots Hall?
 
With regard to the future, could you point out how FF is our FUTURE? I believe the estimates are £30m to build. How will the club ever finance or clear that debt? and what is so wrong with Roots Hall?

Nobody knows the answer to this, I wish this was asked at the 'Q & A' a few months ago.
I have no idea how the build is going to be financed, I have pondered on a few different things such as, Sainsbury's bank letting us borrow the money from them, Sainsbury's borrowing the money from (enter banks name here), Ron Martin will borrow the money from a bank himself (I'm not quite sure if he will ever be allowed to borrow money again though...) Let's not forget Ron had deals with banks about to go through before the banks fell into the black pit of doom and death!
 
Nobody knows the answer to this, I wish this was asked at the 'Q & A' a few months ago.
I have no idea how the build is going to be financed, I have pondered on a few different things such as, Sainsbury's bank letting us borrow the money from them, Sainsbury's borrowing the money from (enter banks name here), Ron Martin will borrow the money from a bank himself (I'm not quite sure if he will ever be allowed to borrow money again though...) Let's not forget Ron had deals with banks about to go through before the banks fell into the black pit of doom and death!

I would just urge people to consider this before harping "FF is the only way forward"
 
thank you for a decent and well put reply on this thread. Fundamentally, I would prefer a southend owned and run by the fans, in which all the money goes back into the club, the team and the staff (and not the scandalous sacking of the kids in the summer), and not one man's coffers.

I favour a fan-owned Club too. The problem though is that money in the English lower-leagues doesn't tend to flow from the Club to the owners but rather the other way around. And if we own the Club the how do we cover the trading losses? And how do we deal with short-term cashflow requirements such as wage payments? I'd love to see a fan-owned SUFC but logistically it would be a big job.
 
I favour a fan-owned Club too. The problem though is that money in the English lower-leagues doesn't tend to flow from the Club to the owners but rather the other way around. And if we own the Club the how do we cover the trading losses? And how do we deal with short-term cashflow requirements such as wage payments? I'd love to see a fan-owned SUFC but logistically it would be a big job.

Well, quite. I believe we're budgeting for a big loss this year. If the fans owned it, the banks wouldnt touch that with a bargepole. Plus, whilst there have been successes of fan-owned clubs, there have also been Notts County.
 
I think that's just it... The prospect of a fan-owned club is like a communist eutopia. Lovely to think of, but it'll never work.

We've historically made consecutive annual losses in the millions and only just posted a profit in our most successful season to date, courtesy of the Eastwood sale. I just don't see how we could sustain losses of that ilk without a wealthy financial benefactor or a core base of around 20,000 supporters paying a moderate membership fee.
 
Well, quite. I believe we're budgeting for a big loss this year. If the fans owned it, the banks wouldnt touch that with a bargepole. Plus, whilst there have been successes of fan-owned clubs, there have also been Notts County.

Didn't the Fan ownership of Bournemouth end up in Administration, the moment they left it they went of a promotional run....
 
I think it is being ignored that AFC wimbledon and FC united are both making a success of things.

yes the majority of league clubs lose money, but the number of administrations etc etc in the past 10 years show that it is running it's course.

the club would simply have to live within it's means - there is also AFC liverpool, and at all three clubs the fans are having the times of their lives, far from "eutopia"
 
It could happen. It's happened elsewhere. As I've said before I've been over to Shamrock Rovers over here and have spoken to a few of their fans/owners about the model that they use and how it could be applied to Southend United. But it's not an exact fit because Rovers are a big fish over here so they have the name and the stadium to attract players plus football is, at best, the fourth sport here so there's not the oversaturation of the game in the country and players can't demand anything like as much money as even mediocre players in England can.

Southend United are a bigger football club than Shamrock Rovers. We have a much higher level of expenditure and this makes fan ownership more tricky because we'd need to generate much greater level of income just to stand still. The only way I can see it working would be if we scaled back massively on the wagebill, even from where we are now and hoped that we could continue to attract 3,000 through the turnstiles every other week and that a significant number of those would be happy to stump up a lot of cash every year for their membership with little realistic possibility of us competing beyond midtable in League Two.
 
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I would just urge people to consider this before harping "FF is the only way forward"

Consider what ?

How could the debt be cleared, and income be increased by remaining at RH ? (I know there is no guarantee that there will be increased revenue streams at FF but there is at least a possibility)
 
The problem though is that money in the English lower-leagues doesn't tend to flow from the Club to the owners but rather the other way around.

If only someone had pointed this out to Ron "it's not your club, it's mine" Martin 10 years ago :)
 
I think it is being ignored that AFC wimbledon and FC united are both making a success of things.

yes the majority of league clubs lose money, but the number of administrations etc etc in the past 10 years show that it is running it's course.

the club would simply have to live within it's means - there is also AFC liverpool, and at all three clubs the fans are having the times of their lives, far from "eutopia"

But this is all at a lower-level than we are. It'll be interesting to see how high Wimbledon can go with their set-up. That would be the one to watch from a Southend United perspective. I don't see how it'll work in the League when they start to have to compete both on and off the pitch with League Clubs being backrolled by millionaires who don't care about a 4.7m operating loss.
 
Consider what ?

How could the debt be cleared, and income be increased by remaining at RH ? (I know there is no guarantee that there will be increased revenue streams at FF but there is at least a possibility)

no extra revenue from the corporate bullsh*t would go to the club, it would go to Ron or whoever took over as owners. all hopes are pinned on one man who isnt even a southend fan
 
I think it is being ignored that AFC wimbledon and FC united are both making a success of things.

yes the majority of league clubs lose money, but the number of administrations etc etc in the past 10 years show that it is running it's course.

the club would simply have to live within it's means - there is also AFC liverpool, and at all three clubs the fans are having the times of their lives, far from "eutopia"

It's worth noting that both those clubs recieved generous support, with FC United of Manchester particularly from a number of stars and benefactors.
 
But this is all at a lower-level than we are. It'll be interesting to see how high Wimbledon can go with their set-up. That would be the one to watch from a Southend United perspective. I don't see how it'll work in the League when they start to have to compete both on and off the pitch with League Clubs being backrolled by millionaires who don't care about a 4.7m operating loss.

there aren't many of those clubs around though beefy. ultimately if people are that peed off with Ron and what he represents then they would gladly follow a suppoter based model. The problem is that although there are a lot of Ron moaners on here, apathy has paralysed them, and their ultimate priority is that they expect to turn up at 2.55, sit in a shiny plastic seat be entertained, ie win, and if they don't it's their right to moan and shout abuse. It's all become too much like going to the cinema for most fans.

the idea of fan ownership is on the basis of the club folding and restarting at a lower level. so you are right that it would be a massive task at present, and also that it is much easier lower down. If the new club could get a groundshare with manor and pursuade the jobless tilly to run it, then that would be big enough news to attract people. it's not worth speculating the level of support, but I would put a sizeable bet on the clubs support being twice that of any average Ryman club, which would mean resources would produce almost instant success
 
I think it is being ignored that AFC wimbledon and FC united are both making a success of things.

yes the majority of league clubs lose money, but the number of administrations etc etc in the past 10 years show that it is running it's course.

the club would simply have to live within it's means - there is also AFC liverpool, and at all three clubs the fans are having the times of their lives, far from "eutopia"

AFC Wimbeldon had very good gates from the word go, mainly due to the emotional situation regarding the MK dons thing, IIRC the average for the first season was better than a load of their league averages. Plus they had a sizeable injection from Edios (Championship manager) who found the "novelty" of a fans club made for a great advertising platform. Initially they were able to ground share on their doorstep and then another benefactor injected funds to buy the ground from a club in severe financial difficulties.

FC United got 2500 for their first ever game , all because of the man U Glazer backlash and have considerable backing still because of the anti glazer issue.
 
It's worth noting that both those clubs recieved generous support, with FC United of Manchester particularly from a number of stars and benefactors.

can you put up what support they had/have - not because I dispute this, but because if you read their website you will see how it is all constructed and run and makes no mention of such - and would like to see any more info
 
no extra revenue from the corporate bullsh*t would go to the club, it would go to Ron or whoever took over as owners. all hopes are pinned on one man who isnt even a southend fan

So, how would staying at RH clear the debt and income be increased by remaining at RH ?
 
AFC Wimbeldon had very good gates from the word go, mainly due to the emotional situation regarding the MK dons thing,

FC United got 2500 for their first ever game , all because of the man U Glazer backlash and have considerable backing still because of the anti glazer issue.

like I say if people really feel that strong about Ron, then I equate that to both of the above. the same with AFC liverpool and their takeover. and who knows who would pop out the old woodwork for us - Alison Moyer may release a benefit album - :)
 
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