Brexit negotiations thread

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I don't think anyone knows what they voted for. It's a complete balls up all round.

Oh, I think a lot of people knew exactly what they voted for. The fact they are unlikely to get what they want is going to annoy many on both sides of the argument. Those who were not strongly comitted either way are probably looking on with horror as the stury unfolds. As you indicate and as I've said many times before.............what a mess!

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

This is for self-belief, right? You know, convince yourself, that's half the battle......... and all that. As it appeared 'exclusively' in the Torygraph and the Express, it is clearly for 'home consumption.' One wonders why the Sunday Mail wasn't included in this? They headed off with an article of (Corbyn "supporters?") trolling the family of a Tory PM. Stick to what you're best at, is what I always say.......the Mail certainly knows a thing or two about trolling!
Anyway, convincing and getting your own side 'onside' would already be quite an achievement. Then you've only got to convince the British people and the EU.........easy-peasy' ;) Well, I suppose you've got to begin somewhere Theresa but that's one hell of a task. Honestly, you could have started with something easier........like convincing people that England can still win the current Ashes series.


Theresa May today declares she has silenced the doubters by securing ⁰ Britain a deal in the first stage of Brexit negotiations #premium http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/16/theresa-may-proved-doubters-wrong/ …

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

This is for self-belief, right? You know, convince yourself, that's half the battle......... and all that. As it appeared 'exclusively' in the Torygraph and the Express, it is clearly for 'home consumption.' One wonders why the Sunday Mail wasn't included in this? They headed off with an article of (Corbyn "supporters?") trolling the family of a Tory PM. Stick to what you're best at, is what I always say.......the Mail certainly knows a thing or two about trolling!
Anyway, convincing and getting your own side 'onside' would already be quite an achievement. Then you've only got to convince the British people and the EU.........easy-peasy' ;) Well, I suppose you've got to begin somewhere Theresa but that's one hell of a task. Honestly, you could have started with something easier........like convincing people that England can still win the current Ashes series.


Theresa May today declares she has silenced the doubters by securing ⁰ Britain a deal in the first stage of Brexit negotiations #premium http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/16/theresa-may-proved-doubters-wrong/ …

Liked one of the journos reviewing the papers on Marr's comment on the article.She called it a MEGO* piece.

*= My eyes glaze over.:smile:

 

[Lord Football]

I see Michael Gove is going to be seeking to remove the EU Working Time Directive.

That's the piece of legislation that means you can't be made to work excessive hours. Farage and his cohorts championed this a positive because it denied YOU the chance to work the hours you want. The reality is that it is there to stop employers MAKING you work excessive hours. You can, and always have been able to, opt out.

And this is where the left wing argument comes crumbling down. Its ok to vote for Brexit to "show solidarity with Greek workers" or to legally be able to "nationalise railways" or to give "capitalists a bloody nose", but the reality is, the EU provided a legal safety net for many things we take for granted in our working life. By removing that safety net, the Tories can do what they like. And probably will.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I see Michael Gove is going to be seeking to remove the EU Working Time Directive.

That's the piece of legislation that means you can't be made to work excessive hours. Farage and his cohorts championed this a positive because it denied YOU the chance to work the hours you want. The reality is that it is there to stop employers MAKING you work excessive hours. You can, and always have been able to, opt out.

And this is where the left wing argument comes crumbling down. Its ok to vote for Brexit to "show solidarity with Greek workers" or to legally be able to "nationalise railways" or to give "capitalists a bloody nose", but the reality is, the EU provided a legal safety net for many things we take for granted in our working life. By removing that safety net, the Tories can do what they like. And probably will.

Actually, you really need to define precisely what you mean by "the left wing argument" for Brexit here.The PLP has been in favour of the EU, officially, since the late 1980's.Precisely because of the legislation protecting EU workers rights,which you allude to.Granted that the 1983 Labour manifesto actually supported bringing the UK out of the EU.But we all know how that worked out.

If by "left wing" you mean Momentum,the CPGB and SWP etc then clearly, by definition, you are not talking about mainstream political parties on the left.

 

[Bielzibubz]

And this is where I believe we should be cherry picking the best parts of EU law and re writing them into UK legislation. I've never ever said that the EU is all bad. In some respects it's laws have been good for the UK (the working time directive being one of them) but I firmly believe there are far to many not so good things about the EU that outweigh any good it's done. And I'm not just talking about it's regulations that we have to abide by.

This is our chance to leave behind all it's bad points, and by God there are many, and take the good things it's done and write our own laws and legislation to carry on those good things. My fear is that over the coming months there will be too many politicians looking to make political points and further their own careers than look after the people of the UK.

 

[Pubey]

I don't think anyone knows what they voted for. It's a complete balls up all round.

I voted for a red, white and blue brexit

 

[Napster]

I voted for a red, white and blue brexit

Brexit means brexit.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

And this is where I believe we should be cherry picking the best parts of EU law and re writing them into UK legislation. I've never ever said that the EU is all bad. In some respects it's laws have been good for the UK (the working time directive being one of them) but I firmly believe there are far to many not so good things about the EU that outweigh any good it's done. And I'm not just talking about it's regulations that we have to abide by.

This is our chance to leave behind all it's bad points, and by God there are many, and take the good things it's done and write our own laws and legislation to carry on those good things. My fear is that over the coming months there will be too many politicians looking to make political points and further their own careers than look after the people of the UK.

Not the cherry picking season is it! in fact I fear that cherry picking, in Europe, may be banned (bloody European directives!) next year! :smile: More seriously, whist I agree with your sentiment about enshrining all that was good in European law, there is an obvious problem and that is, WHO DETERMINES WHAT IS GOOD AND BAD. Sadly, by the illustration above concerning 'Working Time Directives' it looks as if the difference between what you and I may consider as good or bad laws, will not be viewed in the same way by those who will make the decisions.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Heard Kinnock JR on the Daily Politics arguing for the UK's membership of EFTA and the EEA.Made sense to me.

Would seem to be the only way we can square the circle between negotiating a trade deal and controlling freedom of movement after Brexit.

 

[Lord Football]

Actually, you really need to define precisely what you mean by "the left wing argument" for Brexit here.The PLP has been in favour of the EU, officially, since the late 1980's.Precisely because of the legislation protecting EU workers rights,which you allude to.Granted that the 1983 Labour manifesto actually supported bringing the UK out of the EU.But we all know how that worked out.

If by "left wing" you mean Momentum,the CPGB and SWP etc then clearly, by definition, you are not talking about mainstream political parties on the left.

Yes I know.

The left wing argument was the one espoused by the SWP and others that are lazily labelled "the hard left" and the argument I similarly lazily labelled because this is an internet forum and not a debating society.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yes I know.

The left wing argument was the one espoused by the SWP and others that are lazily labelled "the hard left" and the argument I similarly lazily labelled because this is an internet forum and not a debating society.

I'm glad you identified the SWP as the source of what you call "the left wing argument" for Brexit. As I stated.they're hardly a mainstream left-wing party.I would also agree with you that it is intellectually "lazy" to label the SWP and others as "hard left."

Personally,I think that this is worth being crystal clear about, since some people-in particular- Tory commentators, still maintain that Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell have never abandoned their anti-EU views,expressed in the early 80's and before.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-the-papers-42406122

It's official.Barnier says that the city won't get any special "passporting" deal for financial services.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

CANADA...............Certainly, no problem
CANADA +............Possible
CANADA + +.........May be, just may be
CANADA + + + .....Dream on

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

CANADA...............Certainly, no problem
CANADA +............Possible
CANADA + +.........May be, just may be
CANADA + + + .....Dream on

Of course the Canada deal doesn't include financial services, (it also took about 8 years to negotiate).

Barnier's announcement is certainly good news for Dublin,Paris and Frankfurt.Not for London, I fear.

 

[callan]

Of course the Canada deal doesn't include financial services, (it also took about 8 years to negotiate).

Barnier's announcement is certainly good news for Dublin,Paris and Frankfurt.Not for London, I fear.

Actually it does....as follows;

Following normal concepts of international trade agreements, CETA confirms the position on financial services by reference to the following four "modes" of providing services between two territories:

Facilitating the provision of cross-border services from one territory to the other;

Permitting the sale of products in a territory for visitors from the other territory;

The right to establish a physical presence such as a branch or a subsidiary in the other territory; and
the right for individuals to visit the territory of the other in pursuit of financial service business.

However what I would say is that anything the UK / EU intend agreeing on Financial services needs to go beyond this to protect both parties.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Actually it does....as follows;

Following normal concepts of international trade agreements, CETA confirms the position on financial services by reference to the following four "modes" of providing services between two territories:

Facilitating the provision of cross-border services from one territory to the other;

Permitting the sale of products in a territory for visitors from the other territory;

The right to establish a physical presence such as a branch or a subsidiary in the other territory; and
the right for individuals to visit the territory of the other in pursuit of financial service business.

However what I would say is that anything the UK / EU intend agreeing on Financial services needs to go beyond this to protect both parties.

I certainly wasn't aware that Canada's stock exchanges etc, do anything like the vast amount of trading on a daily basis, that people associate with the City of London. :winking:

With reference to your last point, it would appear quite clear that Barnier is not prepared to allow any "cherry picking" where financial services are concerned.Guess we'll just have to wait and see what deal the UK finally mangages to negotiate.What's quite clear,so far,is that it's been the EU which has called the shots not the UK.

 

[londonblue]

I certainly wasn't aware that Canada's stock exchanges etc, do anything like the vast amount of trading on a daily basis, that people associate with the City of London. :winking:

With reference to your last point, it would appear quite clear that Barnier is not prepared to allow any "cherry picking" where financial services are concerned.Guess we'll just have to wait and see what deal the UK finally mangages to negotiate.What's quite clear,so far,is that it's been the EU which has called the shots not the UK.

I guess the concern here, though, is that the EU were happy to allow that level of agreement with Canada because it is Canada. With the UK, they may try to exclude that simply because they see it as an opportunity to "encourage" the banks to move their offices to the EU, and therefore take as much of London's business as they can. Certainly if I were negotiating on behalf of the EU that is what I would be looking to do, especially as they know all the banks are making contingency plans.

Only time will tell.

 

[callan]

I certainly wasn't aware that Canada's stock exchanges etc, do anything like the vast amount of trading on a daily basis, that people associate with the City of London. :winking:

With reference to your last point, it would appear quite clear that Barnier is not prepared to allow any "cherry picking" where financial services are concerned.Guess we'll just have to wait and see what deal the UK finally mangages to negotiate.What's quite clear,so far,is that it's been the EU which has called the shots not the UK.

Not sure what your point is regarding the Canadian stock exchange unless of course you mean to point out that it is larger than say Frankfurt :winking:....and of course LSE is larger than both....if Barnier does not allow any agreement then he will prohibit access for European firms not only to that exchange but to a lot of other services that European companies rely on that are provided by the City, not to mention actual finance that would not be accessible via other cities.

Ultimately Barniers job is to sit on his hands throughout the negotiations, no more no less until he is instructed otherwise.

What Barnier cannot do regardless of how he is instructed, is ignore current WTO policy and guidelines or indeed anything covered by GATS.

 

[kaymac]

I guess the concern here, though, is that the EU were happy to allow that level of agreement with Canada because it is Canada. With the UK, they may try to exclude that simply because they see it as an opportunity to "encourage" the banks to move their offices to the EU, and therefore take as much of London's business as they can. Certainly if I were negotiating on behalf of the EU that is what I would be looking to do, especially as they know all the banks are making contingency plans.

Only time will tell.

Just a query but which banks might move their offices and what are these contingency plans - or is this in reference to ongoing reports on such lines from those informed rags the Guardian and Independent?