Brexit negotiations thread

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Very telling that Europhobes are ramping up the 'evil empire' narrative of what they fondly hope will be the end of the EU, as though wishing it will make it happen, while simultaneously playing down the much more likely scenario of a UK collapse post Brexit. Blind convlction is just that.

Edited for accuracy? .....................always hated conviction politicians.

 

[rigsby]

I don't believe the UK will be immune, of course we wont but you seem to be forgetting that the Eurozone's financial crisis, a crisis that has seen many a country requiring illegal bailouts, Italy entering recession and the mighty German economy only just avoiding one has been largely down to the Euro and those countries being locked into a financial experiment that's gone horribly wrong. And I like your term 'Evil European Empire' because that's exactly what it is.

The real irony is that those on the left that. You know, the one's championing the weak and decrying the uncaring establishment here at home, should all be for supporting the weakest against the dictatorial strong of Europe but ironically are the one's crowing about how good it's been over the years when all the evidence is to the contrary. Seriously, you couldn't make it up.

That's the best bit of the whole debate in the last 3/4 years. In fact the utter hypocrisy of the new middle class left is truly gobsmacking.

Tony Benn had the EU project sussed and where it would lead spot on way back in the mid 70's. Corbyn has had to shelf his own core believes in order to satisfy the white privileged guardian readers from the all white London (and Spanish) suburbs.

The thing is, you can tell deep down that some of the remainers on here, really don't agree with the EU but don't have the personal courage to stand up for what's right. 5 years ago they made the mistake of labeling anyone who mention UKIP as a racist xenophobe. They dug themselves a hole and cant admit it, which is why we are where we are with Brexit

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

For anyone who is curious this was the big news (not my words, copy n paste):

'Looks like the Tory war is exploding.

In an incredible interview with House magazine, Tory minister Richard Harrington calls Tory eurosceptic MPs "traitors" and says they should quit.

Also criticizes May's Brexit strategy and says Malthouse Compromise is "fanciful nonsense".'

In truth, both sides are struggling with a balancing act to keep people on board and underlying this are complex situations in both parties.
In essence Corbyn's Labour Party has a short to medium term problem. The party is transforming, under Corbyn, into a more purist socialist party, free from the image of Blairism. I assume it would hope everyone would rally under the flag promoted, if I am correct, by the organisation and membership of the party. Rather than embarrassing splits, I think it would prefer those not of the current persuasion to quietly fall by the wayside, either by de-selection or retirement. The problem here is that if a split occurs Labour could be enfeebled by a new moderate social democratic party. OK! history is not kind to break away groups but we really do live in strange times at the moment.
The Tory situation is rather more grave. On the face of it the parliamentary party is struggling to cope with the ERG, a right-wing group within the party. The problem here is that the membership and probably tory voters, have more sympathy with the views of the ERM. I don't think the ERG are going anywhere, the question is will the moderates stay on board?
Maybe the bigger question is, how fit for purpose is our present electoral system in face of possible disintegration of the traditional two party system?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

That's the best bit of the whole debate in the last 3/4 years. In fact the utter hypocrisy of the new middle class left is truly gobsmacking.

Tony Benn had the EU project sussed and where it would lead spot on way back in the mid 70's. Corbyn has had to shelf his own core believes in order to satisfy the white privileged guardian readers from the all white London (and Spanish) suburbs.

The thing is, you can tell deep down that some of the remainers on here, really don't agree with the EU but don't have the personal courage to stand up for what's right. 5 years ago they made the mistake of labeling anyone who mention UKIP as a racist xenophobe. They dug themselves a hole and cant admit it, which is why we are where we are with Brexit

I and I assume most remainers on here have many criticisms of the EU, it's just that we don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. The reason we 'are where we are' with Brexit is that this government invoked article 50 without the faintest realistic idea how to impliment its departure. If it had, the issue would have been put to bed by now and we would have been able to get on with our lives rather than wasting time regurgitating the same crappy arguments on here.

 

[rigsby]

I and I assume most remainers on here have many criticisms of the EU, it's just that we don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. The reason we 'are where we are' with Brexit is that this government invoked article 50 without the faintest realistic idea how to impliment its departure. If it had, the issue would have been put to bed by now and we would have been able to get on with our lives rather than wasting time regurgitating the same crappy arguments on here.

Neither does anyone who voted Brexit. But of course you know that, its just another example to prove my point in the previous post.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Neither does anyone who voted Brexit. But of course you know that, its just another example to prove my point in the previous post.

Honestly.................YAAAAAAAAAAAAWN!

 

[Bielzibubz]

I and I assume most remainers on here have many criticisms of the EU, it's just that we don't believe in throwing the baby out with the bath water. The reason we 'are where we are' with Brexit is that this government invoked article 50 without the faintest realistic idea how to impliment its departure. If it had, the issue would have been put to bed by now and we would have been able to get on with our lives rather than wasting time regurgitating the same crappy arguments on here.

And therein lies part of the problem. Remainers that know and can see exactly how disastrous the EU and Euro have been for millions of people and yet quite happily turn a blind eye to it because it's suits them and their 'lets not rock the boat too much' attitude to what's been going on our doorstep since, well since 1971 really but especially the last decade or so. The seeds to where we find ourselves now were sown back in 1946 when the first mutterings about a single European currency were first tentatively muted. How anyone can just pass off the abject misery the EU has forced onto millions of people (pensions lost, savings lost, un-serviceable debt mountains, families ruined, poverty) is astounding.

And even if you are prepared to just pass off it's past crimes, rampant corruption and undemocratic and dictatorial ways there is always the horrifying prospect of it's stated ultimate goal. A Federalist United States of Europe with every sovereign nations Parliamentary powers to set it's own taxes, finances, immigration, laws and more subjugated to a bunch of un-elected technocrats in Brussels.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

And therein lies part of the problem. Remainers that know and can see exactly how disastrous the EU and Euro have been for millions of people and yet quite happily turn a blind eye to it because it's suits them and their 'lets not rock the boat too much' attitude to what's been going on our doorstep since, well since 1971 really but especially the last decade or so. The seeds to where we find ourselves now were sown back in 1946 when the first mutterings about a single European currency were first tentatively muted. How anyone can just pass off the abject misery the EU has forced onto millions of people (pensions lost, savings lost, un-serviceable debt mountains, families ruined, poverty) is astounding.

And even if you are prepared to just pass off it's past crimes, rampant corruption and undemocratic and dictatorial ways there is always the horrifying prospect of it's stated ultimate goal. A Federalist United States of Europe with every sovereign nations Parliamentary powers to set it's own taxes, finances, immigration, laws and more subjugated to a bunch of un-elected technocrats in Brussels.

Yeeeeeees! We've heard all this vitriol so many times before but it doesn't bring us nearer to why we are where we are. I Iove Europe!............you hate Europe! I'm right and you're wrong, you're right and I'm wrong...............and so the 'Dance Macabre' goes on and on and on and on and on and on....................................

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Saw QT last night, had some comedian called Geoff something on who made an absolutely fantastic point which I’ve never considered. He mentioned Donald Tusk saying he’s in a air conditioned boardroom in Brussels giving speeches and wondered why he didn’t have the balls to face the public face to face on a platform like QT?
He cut his point short but I thought he was bang on the money.
These people aren’t elected by the people and yet dictate to our elected representatives on how to behave.
It is farcical and I can’t believe so many of you defend these self serving leeches.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Yeeeeeees! We've heard all this vitriol so many times before but it doesn't bring us nearer to why we are where we are. I Iove Europe!............you hate Europe! I'm right and you're wrong, you're right and I'm wrong...............and so the 'Dance Macabre' goes on and on and on and on and on and on....................................

I rest my case. Despite ALL the evidence out there you love the EU. Well folks I think we're just about done here.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

I rest my case. Despite ALL the evidence out there you love the EU. Well folks I think we're just about done here.

It would be ****ing lovely if we were done but unfortunately despite the public narrowly voting to leave the EU the government still don't know how to do that. This could still run for quite some time.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Saw QT last night, had some comedian called Geoff something on who made an absolutely fantastic point which I’ve never considered. He mentioned Donald Tusk saying he’s in a air conditioned boardroom in Brussels giving speeches and wondered why he didn’t have the balls to face the public face to face on a platform like QT?
He cut his point short but I thought he was bang on the money.
These people aren’t elected by the people and yet dictate to our elected representatives on how to behave.
It is farcical and I can’t believe so many of you defend these self serving leeches.

Geoff Norcott - I mentioned him on the other thread as he was arguing for the 'ISIS child bride' to be allowed back into UK.

His point about the EU officials was that they should be more visible in the member states and that they should come here and argue for Remain.

The notion that they are unelected is a bit misleading. We vote for MEPs. MEPs vote for representatives on various EU committees. EU has many civil servants as UK does.
Who voted for Olly Robbins who is leading the UK's EU negotiations? Who voted for Seumus Milne? The people of Croydon Central actively rejected former MP Gavin Barwell so Theresa May promoted him to one of the more influential positions in the government.

Many people working for democracies are not voted to those positions directly by the public - but the people we vote in then vote in others who vote in others till we have the full set.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I rest my case. Despite ALL the evidence out there you love the EU. Well folks I think we're just about done here.

As Another SS suggested, we are far from done. For me and maybe for you, what IS done is perhaps the pointless reiteration of our entrenched views (which are well known to each other. I'm never going to persuade you to change your ideas in a thousand pages of this thread and you're never going to change mine. What I have mostly tried to do is follow the situation as it develops and try and see where it's leading us. Our leave or remain positions are set in stone and won't be altered..........................rather like the withdrawal agreement.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Usually, every Thursday night I get to bed just after eleven (10pm GMT). I put the radio on to hear Question Time. I normally get through the preliminary bit which runs to about 10.45 GMT (which I don't consider very good). The next thing I know, it's 2/3/4am in the morning and the radio is still playing! Maybe I should record it on TV!

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Saw QT last night, had some comedian called Geoff something on who made an absolutely fantastic point which I’ve never considered. He mentioned Donald Tusk saying he’s in a air conditioned boardroom in Brussels giving speeches and wondered why he didn’t have the balls to face the public face to face on a platform like QT?
He cut his point short but I thought he was bang on the money.
These people aren’t elected by the people and yet dictate to our elected representatives on how to behave.
It is farcical and I can’t believe so many of you defend these self serving leeches.

Yeah I saw QT time too.The EU make it a point not to interfere in the domestic politics of individual member states.In any case they're well out of the farce which is Brexit. They're currently waiting (in vain I imagine) for Mrs May to turn up in Brussels with some new ideas to re-open negotiations on her deal next week.

Edit.The comedian you mention had obviously watched the Marr show last Sunday.It was AM who first posed the question as to why people like Tusk didn't come on his programme,despite repeated invites.As an experienced political journalist he would obviously know the reason why.And they say the BBC isn't biased (against left wingers).

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Usually, every Thursday night I get to bed just after eleven (10pm GMT). I put the radio on to hear Question Time. I normally get through the preliminary bit which runs to about 10.45 GMT (which I don't consider very good). The next thing I know, it's 2/3/4am in the morning and the radio is still playing! Maybe I should record it on TV!

Or get it on playback.

 

[Bielzibubz]

Yeah I saw QT time too.The EU make it a point not to interfere in the domestic politics of individual member states.In any case they're well out of the farce which is Brexit. They're currently waiting (in vain I imagine) for Mrs May to turn up in Brussels with some new ideas to re-open negotiations on her deal next week.

Edit.The comedian you mention had obviously watched the Marr show last Sunday.It was AM who first posed the question as to why people like Tusk didn't come on his programme,despite repeated invites.As an experienced political journalist he would obviously know the reason why.And they say the BBC isn't biased (against left wingers).

You're having a ****ing laugh are you? Christ on a bike you poor deluded ex pat you. That's exactly what they do. From dictating fiscal policies to forcing elected politicians from office. You have absolutely no bloody clue comrade.

 

[Swiss Tony]

It would be ****ing lovely if we were done but unfortunately despite the public narrowly voting to leave the EU the government still don't know how to do that. This could still run for quite some time.

Over a million difference,try counting to a million plus,you could be quite sometime.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

According to the FT this morning, the Japanese don't appear to be too rushed to copy and paste the same deal with us as they made with the EU, in spite of the subtlety of our diplomatic approach! Why can't they recognise our omnipotence...................after all the Swiss and the Faroe Islands buckled fairly quickly. Maybe our negotiating skills are not up to what they should be, with Messrs Hunt and Fox..................why not send Grayling out to assist. That would be a negotiating force to make Japan tremble at the knees and sign up post-haste!
What's more they could send him out on our new aircraft carrier, a bit of gunboat diplomacy is what's needed to bring these johnny foreigners into line. With that we could knock over China at the same time as Japan.

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

Over a million difference,try counting to a million plus,you could be quite sometime.

As a percentage it's not very much.