Brexit negotiations thread

[callan]

Don't think my example was any less "close to the Brexit situation " than yours ,Jim.

Simply put, the EU have made it clear from the outset that the issues of EU workers rights and the NI border situation must be resolved first before discussions can go onto the divorce settlement or post-Brexit trade terms.They hold the cards we don't.

As for immigration,I imagine that you are aware that nurses,care assistants, cleaners etc, (in terms of income), are classified as "low skilled workers?" Without such Spanish and Portuguese workers the NHS and Care for the elderly etc would collapse.Is that what you want?

The UK is free to hire workers from anywhere in the world, and they will come should we see a need to hire them....and as you point out they are attracted even from European countries despite the fact we have low wages and reasonably high living costs....why is this?

As a UK tax payer I would be against any government carrying on a 40 year tradition of giving the EU a blank cheque, especially at the point of negotiating a withdrawal.....how much do you think the UK should pay?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

]If I take the nurses example, what I want is better trained UK nurses who are trained and taught here in the UK AND are not made to pay the huge student fees to work & train for 3 years with a low(ish) paid profession as the goal[/B]. When nursing training is more realistically costed, when qualified (UK) nurses are paid a much better wage then the NHS will benefit;- at present the NHS is being bleed by shortages which lead to higher costs in agency staff (many owned by high ranking NHS people and politicos) and huge overtime/private bills.
A few years ago Southend Hospital spent a huge amount of money recruiting nurses from Iberia, about 40 nurses, they came over, worked the minimum contract and then went either private, agency or 20 miles into the London pay scale areas; that isn't a "model" of employment that makes sense to me.

Don't have any problem whatsoever with more UK trained nurses, who I agree shouldn't have to pay tuition fees.Only problem here is that they'll take a few years to train up and get on the wards.

As far as nurses from Iberia are concerned,don't think that'll be too much of a problem in the future,far fewer are now applying for NHS jobs since Brexit.(As I believe I've said before), I used to teach a Health Lecturer at the UIC here, until July.She told me that Spanish doctors and nurses are now applying to the US,Canada and OZ rather than the UK for work.

 

[callan]

Don't have any problem whatsoever with more UK trained nurses, who I agree shouldn't have to pay tuition fees.Only problem here is that they'll take a few years to train up and get on the wards.

As far as nurses from Iberia are concerned,don't think that'll be too much of a problem in the future,far fewer are now applying for NHS jobs since Brexit.(As I believe I've said before), I used to teach a Health Lecturer at the UIC here, until July.She told me that Spanish doctors and nurses are now applying to the US,Canada and OZ rather than the UK for work.

Interesting that you highlight that European nurses wont be attracted to the EU countries....instead preferring countries that are not shackled by freedom of movement.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Interesting that you highlight that European nurses wont be attracted to the EU countries....instead preferring countries that are not shackled by freedom of movement.

You make the point that I alluded to; they go where they will get well rewarded even if there are a few "hoops" to go through to get there. UK trained nurses have always followed the £ or $ in working abroad and are doing so in growing numbers. They really do need better remuneration and a few easy suggestions (such as no fees in year 2 and 3) would make their training more attractive and less costly for them.
There may not be any surveys to state that EU migration has kept wages depressed BUT that doesn't automatically discard that possibility/reality in some jobs.

 

[MK Shrimper]

Is a nurse in the US, Canada or Australia paid any more than they are here? The cost of living in Australia is so high it would probably negate any pay increase.

Now going into a private practice or to the Middle East is a definite gateway to the $$$$

 

[callan]

Is a nurse in the US, Canada or Australia paid any more than they are here? The cost of living in Australia is so high it would probably negate any pay increase.

Now going into a private practice or to the Middle East is a definite gateway to the $$$$

If you are putting forward an argument that pay is a factor in determining where someone works then you can apply that across a broad range of vocations...what is clear is that Nurses are moving away from both the UK and EU, and certainly not being put off by the wages outside the EU.

 

[callan]

You make the point that I alluded to; they go where they will get well rewarded even if there are a few "hoops" to go through to get there. UK trained nurses have always followed the £ or $ in working abroad and are doing so in growing numbers. They really do need better remuneration and a few easy suggestions (such as no fees in year 2 and 3) would make their training more attractive and less costly for them.
There may not be any surveys to state that EU migration has kept wages depressed BUT that doesn't automatically discard that possibility/reality in some jobs.

In fairness it was Barna who made the point...that Spanish Nurses and doctors are pursuing careers outside of the EU...not sure he meant to but full credit for his honest appraisal that skills are leaving.

 

[MK Shrimper]

If you are putting forward an argument that pay is a factor in determining where someone works then you can apply that across a broad range of vocations...what is clear is that Nurses are moving away from both the UK and EU, and certainly not being put off by the wages outside the EU.

Rather disingenous to compare large countries like the USA, Canada and Australia (and even NZ) with the EU.

1) The main language of these countries is English, so very handy if they're British born. If not, most educated Europeans seem to speak perfectly good English. Most British people cannot speak another language, however I've worked with a few Europeans who speak several fluently.
2) Excluding NZ, they are so vast, I'm sure the wages in New South Wales is different to that in other states not to mention California to say, Maine.

 

[callan]

Rather disingenous to compare large countries like the USA, Canada and Australia (and even NZ) with the EU.

1) The main language of these countries is English, so very handy if they're British born. If not, most educated Europeans seem to speak perfectly good English. Most British people cannot speak another language, however I've worked with a few Europeans who speak several fluently.
2) Excluding NZ, they are so vast, I'm sure the wages in New South Wales is different to that in other states not to mention California to say, Maine.

The point is that they are not, as highlighted by yourself put off by taking theirs skills outside of the EU....to countries where freedom of movement agreements do not exist.

Mr Juncker of course does not place as much value on being able to speak English, as your goodself and I.

Are we starting to see your inner Brexiteer shine through MK?:smile:

 

[Lord Football]

The point is that they are not, as highlighted by yourself put off by taking theirs skills outside of the EU....to countries where freedom of movement agreements do not exist.

Mr Juncker of course does not place as much value on being able to speak English, as your goodself and I.

Are we starting to see your inner Brexiteer shine through MK?:smile:

There is however a difference between a "freedom of movement" agreement and bar on foreign workers.

If I understood a news report last night, nurses will be subjected to controls because their wages identify them as unskilled.

That says much about the people who thought up the idea and a lot more about how we pay public servants.


But....... what has been leaked isn't a government policy and may never be intended to be. It could possibly have been a tactical leak (lets leak it and see what reaction it gets). More than likely its an early version of a position paper and these can include all sorts of tosh before they get filtered out.

I am not excited about it at this stage.

I am increasingly more concerned at the blaze attitude towards negotiations and the ever decreasing timescales to get "day one" to work.

 

[callan]

There is however a difference between a "freedom of movement" agreement and bar on foreign workers.

If I understood a news report last night, nurses will be subjected to controls because their wages identify them as unskilled.

That says much about the people who thought up the idea and a lot more about how we pay public servants.


But....... what has been leaked isn't a government policy and may never be intended to be. It could possibly have been a tactical leak (lets leak it and see what reaction it gets). More than likely its an early version of a position paper and these can include all sorts of tosh before they get filtered out.

I am not excited about it at this stage.

I am increasingly more concerned at the blaze attitude towards negotiations and the ever decreasing timescales to get "day one" to work.

Can't fault this...with Public service pay being under the cosh for several years now, this will certainly be factor on who we can attract into positions such as nursing.

Domestically we need to be doing a lot more including free tuition fee's.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...uk-appears-to-be-in-reverse-over-divorce-bill

See that nice Michel Barnier has given the UK a bit of a ticking off over the lack of progress in Brexit negotiations so far,especially over the so-called divorce bill.

Also note there's currently “in the neighbourhood of zero" of negotiations moving onto trade talks by October.Who would have thunk it?

 

[Lord Football]

Potentially this is the best thread in this section.

Posters are correct. If we want to read the Guardian, we will buy a copy.

So, no more links to the Guardian, or anything else, unless there is a personal opinion that goes with it. It has got tiresome and serves no purpose.

Thank you for your time

LF
Mod Mode

 

[Bielzibubz]

Thought this was quite funny.The comments are well worth reading too!

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...l-spanish-pensioners-immigrants-a7934881.html

(Please note it comes from The Independent).:smiles:

Especially this one.

The drawbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.
Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.

Valued, educated professionals globally will always have a place in the UK. We have enough low skilled workers to necessitate any more.
The drawbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.


Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.


Valued, educated professionals globally will always have a place in the UK. We have enough low skilled workers to necessitate any more.
The drawbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.


Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.


Valued, educatwbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.
Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.


Valued, educated professionals globally will always have a place in the UK. We have enough low skilled workers to necessitate any more.

 

[Lord Football]

We have enough low skilled workers to necessitate any more.

That is a really interesting point.

We currently have the lowest unemployment in many years (even ever). However, many of these jobs are not full time. In fact many employers are encouraged to offer 16 hour contracts as this is the minimum threashold for claiming benefits. So technically, statistically, we don't have an employment issue as we are almost in full employment.

Of course the flip side is that we are hearing from many businesses who are wholly reliant on unskilled labour. Obvious examples are arable farmers who are seeing field loads of fruit sitting unpicked because Portuguese immigrants, who come on a seasonal basis, haven't. They haven't because they no longer feel welcome. Longer term immigrants similarly aren't coming because they don't know what their immediate short and long term status will be.

And what's the reason we have low skilled immigrants.... because many of the jobs they do, we believe to be below us. (and history bears this out, which is why when I was a kid London transport was pretty much run by Afro Caribbean immigrants).

And then of course, as I've said earlier, because "low skilled" is defined by wage, it encompasses a lot of the NHS.

Finally, we have schrodinger's immigrant.... he who simultaneously comes over here and takes our jobs whilst taking the **** out of our benefit system!!!

The bottom line here is that there isn't in fact an immigration problem. Immigration is being used to mask larger problem with society and the employment system.

Ultimately, he have the choice post Brexit of closing the borders and restricting immigration.... but this may then result in businesses going bust causing greater unemployment.

 

[Bielzibubz]

That is a really interesting point.

We currently have the lowest unemployment in many years (even ever). However, many of these jobs are not full time. In fact many employers are encouraged to offer 16 hour contracts as this is the minimum threashold for claiming benefits. So technically, statistically, we don't have an employment issue as we are almost in full employment.

Of course the flip side is that we are hearing from many businesses who are wholly reliant on unskilled labour. Obvious examples are arable farmers who are seeing field loads of fruit sitting unpicked because Portuguese immigrants, who come on a seasonal basis, haven't. They haven't because they no longer feel welcome. Longer term immigrants similarly aren't coming because they don't know what their immediate short and long term status will be.

And what's the reason we have low skilled immigrants.... because many of the jobs they do, we believe to be below us. (and history bears this out, which is why when I was a kid London transport was pretty much run by Afro Caribbean immigrants).

And then of course, as I've said earlier, because "low skilled" is defined by wage, it encompasses a lot of the NHS.

Finally, we have schrodinger's immigrant.... he who simultaneously comes over here and takes our jobs whilst taking the **** out of our benefit system!!!

The bottom line here is that there isn't in fact an immigration problem. Immigration is being used to mask larger problem with society and the employment system.

Ultimately, he have the choice post Brexit of closing the borders and restricting immigration.... but this may then result in businesses going bust causing greater unemployment.

I, like many others, don't want to see closed borders and an end to immigration, as I've explained many times before, and I don't see Brexit as being an issue with regards to those that want to work, coming over here and working in whatever field they are either skilled or not skilled in.

Yes, I'll concede that at present there is a lot of uncertainty concerning what the future holds for these migrant workers you mention but I believe that that uncertainty will ease once Brexit is finalised and I trust and hope that the Government will, in the end, get the balance right.

Controlled immigration is the key word here. What I want is for the UK Government to have and use the power to control the flow of people that come to this country to work on a temporary basis, those that wish to come and settle here and also have the power to eject those that are not welcome or wanted.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Especially this one.

The drawbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.
Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.

Valued, educated professionals globally will always have a place in the UK. We have enough low skilled workers to necessitate any more.
[FONT=&]The drawbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Valued, educated professionals globally will always have a place in the UK. We have enough low skilled workers to necessitate any more.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The drawbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Valued, educat[/FONT][FONT=&]wbridge is not being raised and immigration stopped. The "freedom" of movement, (should be free-for-all of movement), will be stopped.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Where there is need, EU citizens will be welcomed as they are now. Freedom to benefits, freedom to exhaust infrastructure purely because they "are only a 2% burden on the state", will be history.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]Valued, educated professionals globally will always have a place in the UK. We have enough low skilled workers to necessitate any more.[/FONT]

I preferred this one:-

"Whatever. Let's have world war 2 instead then

Why is it called that? Oh that's right,. because there was another one before it

Yes, we really should get rid of a united Europe <roll eyes>"

Roll on the 3 day week week and the return to the 70's.:nope:

 

[Bielzibubz]

TUIB. How about you actually right something that's been put together by you. Why don't you explain to us all in your own words why you think a completely unregulated and open migration policy works for the UK taking into account the social and infrastructure costs thereof?

Why don't you explain to us all in your own words why you think the UK isn't capable and cannot be trusted to implement the laws that will be passed on from the EU once the great repeal bill is passed?

There you go. Everyone else has.

Over to you.

 

[Benfleet A1]

TUIB. How about you actually right something that's been put together by you. Why don't you explain to us all in your own words why you think a completely unregulated and open migration policy works for the UK taking into account the social and infrastructure costs thereof?

Why don't you explain to us all in your own words why you think the UK isn't capable and cannot be trusted to implement the laws that will be passed on from the EU once the great repeal bill is passed?

There you go. Everyone else has.

Over to you.

Still the links is it? Stopping that lasted long didn't it. Of course it's not trolling.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

TUIB. How about you actually right something that's been put together by you. Why don't you explain to us all in your own words why you think a completely unregulated and open migration policy works for the UK taking into account the social and infrastructure costs thereof?

Why don't you explain to us all in your own words why you think the UK isn't capable and cannot be trusted to implement the laws that will be passed on from the EU once the great repeal bill is passed?

There you go. Everyone else has.

Over to you.

Think you'll find it's no longer called "the Great Repeal bill". Just the Repeal bill now, for legal reasons.Certainly the Henry 8th powers part of it are guaranteed to cause the Tories huge problems with their more libertarian backbechers.Labour will, quite rightly, vote against the whole bill since it allows scant time for parliamentary scrutiny.

Politically speaking, it will,of course,provide an early opportunity to test the roadworhiness of the governments billion quid bung to the DUP too.

https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/repeal-bill