Brexit negotiations thread

[londonblue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/eu-journalists-leaked-home-office-brexit-plans

Here's the European reaction to that leaked Government document.

"Brits will have to ‘pick their cabbages and wash their elderly themselves’ say EU journalists, calling document ‘desperate’."

And this is what UK busines leaders think:-

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41172505

Where in that post is any hint of your opinion?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Where in that post is any hint of your opinion?

I think it's fairly easy to infer, (as I've stated previously), that I'm not exactly happy with the government's plans as outlined in the leaked Guardian documents.

Don't think there's any rule on SZ that you have to state your opinion in every post.If I'm mistaken, I'd be happy to change post 480 accordingly.

Incidentally,what is your opinion of HMG's proposed immigration plans?

 

[londonblue]

I think it's fairly easy to infer, (as I've stated previously), that I'm not exactly happy with the government's plans as outlined in the leaked Guardian documents.

Don't think there's any rule on SZ that you have to state your opinion in every post.If I'm mistaken, I'd be happy to change post 480 accordingly.

Incidentally,what is your opinion of HMG's proposed immigration plans?

I can't tell you. I haven't found a link to it yet.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I can't tell you. I haven't found a link to it yet.

It may have escaped your attention that I usually use links to support my opinion not to subsitute them for one.:raspberry:

 

[londonblue]

It may have escaped your attention that I usually use links to support my opinion not to subsitute them for one.:raspberry:

Yep, it completely did. Especially when, as you say yourself, you leave people to infer your opinion rather than state it explicitly.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Yep, it completely did. Especially when, as you say yourself, you leave people to infer your opinion rather than state it explicitly.

Notice the "usually" in my reply. As a TEFL teacher I was taught "to cover yourself with modals at all times." :smiles:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41176699

Thought this "Reality check" on low-skilled workers from the EU in the UK was relevant here.

Apparently,they only represent some 6% of the UK workforce.So not much of a threat really then.:facepalm:

Edit.That's actually nearer to 7% according to this article.

https://www.theguardian.com/busines...on-plans-cbi-institute-of-directors-eu-brexit

 

[Gremlin]

I think it's fairly easy to infer, (as I've stated previously), that I'm not exactly happy with the government's plans as outlined in the leaked Guardian documents.

Tell me which part(s) you are unhappy with and I can let you know why you're wrong.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Ref the brexit bill;-
I have had a builder do some work on my mothers bathroom and turning it into a mobility challenged persons shower/wet room and there was some reasonable extra work required[ she has an old bungalow and there was some lead pipes, damp, rotten floor boards etc.
He has given me the bill - told me the bottom line, and we are negotiating it.
My understanding is that the EU won't or can't pot a figure forward SO HOW THE HELL DOES THE UK NEGOTIATE WITH THAT?
And if the builder (the EU) asked me how much I wanted to pay I would pay no more than the original estimate that was on the quote - or in the EU case of legally binding obligations NIL or close to.
Then we, the UK should decide which projects that the EU does have. are worth contributing to; for example the EU Mission in Kosovo.

 

[Lord Football]

Ref the brexit bill;-
I have had a builder do some work on my mothers bathroom and turning it into a mobility challenged persons shower/wet room and there was some reasonable extra work required[ she has an old bungalow and there was some lead pipes, damp, rotten floor boards etc.
He has given me the bill - told me the bottom line, and we are negotiating it.
My understanding is that the EU won't or can't pot a figure forward SO HOW THE HELL DOES THE UK NEGOTIATE WITH THAT?
And if the builder (the EU) asked me how much I wanted to pay I would pay no more than the original estimate that was on the quote - or in the EU case of legally binding obligations NIL or close to.
Then we, the UK should decide which projects that the EU does have. are worth contributing to; for example the EU Mission in Kosovo.

And I think therein lays the problem. We were told by the likes of Davis and Gove that negotiating our exit was simple. As simple as the example you've given. It isn't.

Let me change your example slightly.

Your builder is the ONLY person who can do the work you need and will want paying before he does it. You cannot agree on the bill because his assessment of his work is higher than your assessment, and neither of you know the amount of the reasonable extra work needed on pipes, floors etc until it is done.

In the real world, you could probably go to an ombudsmen or a court to mediate, because both you and the builder have the same set of rules.

However, the EU would want the ECJ to arbitrate and, as we know, UKG will be seeking to disassociate itself from that ASAP. Politically, seeking the ECJ to arbitrate is a non starter.

And to complicate the matter further, until the bill is agreed then there is a very real danger than nothing else will be discussed.

 

[Lord Football]

The fact that the EU is so bleeding arrogant and difficult to deal with and takes so long to agree on anything is one of the reasons we're leaving!

And we are not?

There seems to be a belief that because we are the UK we can actually have our cake and eat it. Boris said this. The EU made it clear before the referendum that we couldn't, they made it clear post the referendum that we couldn't and during the negotiations it is clear we aren't and wont be.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Tell me which part(s) you are unhappy with and I can let you know why you're wrong.

How about all of it? As these good people's accounts make clear:-https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/sep/06/eu-citizens-in-disbelief-over-uks-leaked-brexit-proposals

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Ref the brexit bill;-
I have had a builder do some work on my mothers bathroom and turning it into a mobility challenged persons shower/wet room and there was some reasonable extra work required[ she has an old bungalow and there was some lead pipes, damp, rotten floor boards etc.
He has given me the bill - told me the bottom line, and we are negotiating it.
My understanding is that the EU won't or can't pot a figure forward SO HOW THE HELL DOES THE UK NEGOTIATE WITH THAT?
And if the builder (the EU) asked me how much I wanted to pay I would pay no more than the original estimate that was on the quote - or in the EU case of legally binding obligations NIL or close to.
Then we, the UK should decide which projects that the EU does have. are worth contributing to; for example the EU Mission in Kosovo.

I've been offered some work this week.I won't be taking it on because in the first case, the price I was offered was well below the minimum I'm prepared to accept (and get elsewhere).In the second, the person concerned didn't take account of the times I clearly stated I was available.

Edit.The point is, for any negotiation to reach a successful conclusion both sides have to have something to offer,in order to reach a "win-win" outcome.In their negotiation with the EU the UK don't hold the cards,the EU does.

Unless the UK agrees to compromise first on EU citizens' rights (both in the UK and the rest of the EU) and second on a soft border in Ireland then there won't be talks on a divorce settlement or post-Brexit trade terms.

The EU seem to have accepted that the UK will be leaving Europe by the end of March 2019.They don't seem too fussed whether the UK remains a member of the single market or not.If the UK goes ahead with its proposed immigration plans then there's no chance of remaining in it after March 2019.Crashing out of the EU on WTO rules -the nightmare scenario-would seem to be a logical consequence, unless some sort of deal can be struck beforehand.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...new-eu-immigration-controls-after-brexit-leak

"Speaking at the first prime minister’s questions since the summer recess, May did not refer directly to the Home Office document leaked to the Guardian, but repeated her insistence that migration has depressed the wages of lower-paid workers".

The is,of course,no reliable evidence to suggest that low skilled EU immigration has affected the wages of "lower-paid" UK workers.

 

[IloveShrimp]

Now it has come to light what a mucking fuddle brexit is in and the consequences of it, there should be a second referendum with the facts being put forward instead of lies and misleading opinion that was used originally.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I've been offered some work this week.I won't be taking it on because in the first case, the price I was offered was well below the minimum I'm prepared to accept (and get elsewhere).In the second, the person concerned didn't take account of the times I clearly stated I was available.

.

If I have read it right your example is not, IMO, very close to the Brexit situation although I take the point that time is often = money.
Simply put if the EU believes the UK owes it money then they must present the bill and let the UK argue it from then on; at present the "cart is being put before the horse".
As for migration, personally I don't give too many worries on low skilled workers coming to the UK; BUT I don't want no skill, no worker, DSS & NHS claimers coming - or EU criminals that can't be sent back pdq. AND in this I also believe (living here!) that the Tories have a small understanding of general migration fears but are not in tune with the sentiments of persons such as myself.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

If I have read it right your example is not, IMO, very close to the Brexit situation although I take the point that time is often = money.
Simply put if the EU believes the UK owes it money then they must present the bill and let the UK argue it from then on; at present the "cart is being put before the horse".
As for migration, personally I don't give too many worries on low skilled workers coming to the UK; BUT I don't want no skill, no worker, DSS & NHS claimers coming - or EU criminals that can't be sent back pdq. AND in this I also believe (living here!) that the Tories have a small understanding of general migration fears but are not in tune with the sentiments of persons such as myself.

Don't think my example was any less "close to the Brexit situation " than yours ,Jim.

Simply put, the EU have made it clear from the outset that the issues of EU workers rights and the NI border situation must be resolved first before discussions can go onto the divorce settlement or post-Brexit trade terms.They hold the cards we don't.

As for immigration,I imagine that you are aware that nurses,care assistants, cleaners etc, (in terms of income), are classified as "low skilled workers?" Without such Spanish and Portuguese workers the NHS and Care for the elderly etc would collapse.Is that what you want?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-41183041

Signs of some movement on the NI border situation here by the EU.Good.

 

[MK Shrimper]

As for immigration,I imagine that you are aware that nurses,care assistants, cleaners etc, (in terms of income), are classified as "low skilled workers?" Without such Spanish and Portuguese workers the NHS and Care for the elderly etc would collapse.Is that what you want?

Not to mention Maybot (then as Home Sec) allegedly supressed nine reports that stated that immigrant labour had very little, if any impact on jobs & wages. Some Remainer.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...-jobs-wages-cable_uk_59b01cd0e4b0354e440e95fa

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Don't think my example was any less "close to the Brexit situation " than yours ,Jim.

Simply put, the EU have made it clear from the outset that the issues of EU workers rights and the NI border situation must be resolved first before discussions can go onto the divorce settlement or post-Brexit trade terms.They hold the cards we don't.

As for immigration,I imagine that you are aware that nurses,care assistants, cleaners etc, (in terms of income), are classified as "low skilled workers?" Without such Spanish and Portuguese workers the NHS and Care for the elderly etc would collapse.Is that what you want?

If I take the nurses example, what I want is better trained UK nurses who are trained and taught here in the UK AND are not made to pay the huge student fees to work & train for 3 years with a low(ish) paid profession as the goal. When nursing training is more realistically costed, when qualified (UK) nurses are paid a much better wage then the NHS will benefit;- at present the NHS is being bleed by shortages which lead to higher costs in agency staff (many owned by high ranking NHS people and politicos) and huge overtime/private bills.
A few years ago Southend Hospital spent a huge amount of money recruiting nurses from Iberia, about 40 nurses, they came over, worked the minimum contract and then went either private, agency or 20 miles into the London pay scale areas; that isn't a "model" of employment that makes sense to me.