Brexit negotiations thread

[Tangled up in Blue]

Mr Cameron is not the reason the country is divided. I would suggest that 40 years of lies about the EEC and then the EU from our politicians has had much more impact on any divisions. Most people don't like being lied to and the normal response is to react in some manner to counter those lies. The result was the brexit vote.
Nearly all the comments on this thread are about the economy. The vote was about much more than that for the people who voted leave.
The so called peoples vote campaigners are still lying to us with constant fear mongering, and again all about the economy. I, for one, am tired of hearing all their cobblers and am getting angrier by the day. Even the pro brexit Tories are no better as all they do is talk but do nothing. If they were serious there would be sufficient letters into the 1922 committee to try and get rid of May.
To be honest, with no grandchildren to worry about, I'm getting to the stage that I don't care what happens and if brexit is betrayed then future generations will suffer the awful consequences.
How anyone can consider being part of the EU is a positive thing is beyond me.

While I agree with a lot of what you have to say, I can't possibly agree with your last sentence.In my own lifetime in Spain I have seen at first hand the benefits of Spain's membership of the EU:
These include the rationalisation of residence/work permits/pension rights/ free health treatment/ etc for EU nationals like me.I would also argue that Spain's membership of the EU in 1986 and the election of a Socialist government here in the early 80's, put the final nails in the coffin of the Franco era.

A similar case can be put forward for the positive aspects of the UK's membership of the EU,though I don't think it's appropriate for me to make it here.Suffice it to say that YB's post above is relevant.

 

[MK Shrimper]

I wanted to leave the EU before the referendum campaign

Can I ask why?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Can I ask why?

Sorry to butt in (ahem) but I'm guessing he'd be one of those Tories who's wanted out since the Maastrich era.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Can I ask why?

I wanted out, since I worked for the EU nearly two decades ago. It is corrupt and self serving from bottom to top, it is not audited or accountable to any person or organisation, and that includes it's own legislature. It has been on a clear course of greater federalisation and tighter union on many aspects of National sovereignty; most worryingly political and defence.
AND it is a shame as it needn't be that way BUT the likes of Junker and Macron are working to their own agendas and with a disregard for alternate policy.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

I wanted out, since I worked for the EU nearly two decades ago. It is corrupt and self serving from bottom to top, it is not audited or accountable to any person or organisation, and that includes it's own legislature. It has been on a clear course of greater federalisation and tighter union on many aspects of National sovereignty; most worryingly political and defence.
AND it is a shame as it needn't be that way BUT the likes of Junker and Macron are working to their own agendas and with a disregard for alternate policy.

The EU is audited and is accountable in various ways to the European Parliament and national governments. It's not perfect but where the democratic deficit is that the UK Parliament does not hold it's government ministers and representatives to account for their decisions made in Europe. This is a flaw in the UK system of government which is unfit for the 21st Century.

Whilst there is some truth in your description of the EU, how on earth is the UK an improvement on this?

Just look at the UK and our second chamber; our constitutional mess with regional devolution; look at how secondary legislation is passed in the UK; look at how our election results are not proportional; look at how corrupt the system of patronage and honours is; look at the MPs expenses scandal; look at the influence of the whips; look at how the opposition party are led by Jeremy Corbyn; look at how Chris Grayling can be a government minister despite his spectacular failings as Minister for Work and Pensions, Justice Secretary and Transport Secretary; look at how a cartoon anarchronism like Jacob Rees-Mogg or Arlene Foster can have PM May u-turning; look at every single government IT contract spiralling out of budget; look at the Windrush scandal; look at how Blair lied to Parliament over WMD and took the country to war on a lie; look at how we sold arms to Iraq before that; look at the child sex abuse scandals and how we failed to protect kids from monsters like Jimmy Savile; look at cash for questions and MPs like Neil Hamilton and the later scandal of cash for influence; look at all those not caught like Neil Hamilton but dripping in lobbying cash; look at how our politicians our liars and perjurers from Jonathan Aitken to Peter Mandelson's mortgage fraud; look at the way the party conferences are funded; look at the way Brexit was funded by Russia; look at how Liam Fox has to resign in shame but is allowed back in; look at the contaminated blood scandal; look at the renewable heat incentive scandal in NI and how we reward Arlene Foster for her involvement in it by giving her power. And that's only the half of it.

Where Brexiteers are deluding themselves is that the UK will be in any way an improvement. Brex**itters have spent too long complaining about relatively minor flaws and differences in the EU to notice how our national system of government is stuck in the 18th Century and is not remotely fit for purpose and is run by spivs, non-entities, idiots and crooks.

This is who you've handed power back to. You're never going to see that power nor the benefit of it.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

The EU accounts are, literally a law unto themselves in that they have their own funded investigators and litigators - and seemingly unique vocabulary on what is an error or irregularity that is known as a fraud in laymans' language. They have re-written the rule book and seemingly got people to accept their explanations of why they can't be INDEPENDENTLY audited but have to keep it all in house and only allow access to limited areas.

I am not deluded into thinking the UK Guv is clean or perfect - far from it - and I vote according to that; never for Amess or local tories - nor for JC's clowns.
I chose not to accept to continue to allow the EU excesses and should there ever be an opportunity to vote for a better form of representation than we have now then I will opt for that too................not just suggest "it could be worse" or "they are all poor" and carry on.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

The EU is audited and is accountable in various ways to the European Parliament and national governments. It's not perfect but where the democratic deficit is that the UK Parliament does not hold it's government ministers and representatives to account for their decisions made in Europe. This is a flaw in the UK system of government which is unfit for the 21st Century.

Whilst there is some truth in your description of the EU, how on earth is the UK an improvement on this?

Just look at the UK and our second chamber; our constitutional mess with regional devolution; look at how secondary legislation is passed in the UK; look at how our election results are not proportional; look at how corrupt the system of patronage and honours is; look at the MPs expenses scandal; look at the influence of the whips; look at how the opposition party are led by Jeremy Corbyn; look at how Chris Grayling can be a government minister despite his spectacular failings as Minister for Work and Pensions, Justice Secretary and Transport Secretary; look at how a cartoon anarchronism like Jacob Rees-Mogg or Arlene Foster can have PM May u-turning; look at every single government IT contract spiralling out of budget; look at the Windrush scandal; look at how Blair lied to Parliament over WMD and took the country to war on a lie; look at how we sold arms to Iraq before that; look at the child sex abuse scandals and how we failed to protect kids from monsters like Jimmy Savile; look at cash for questions and MPs like Neil Hamilton and the later scandal of cash for influence; look at all those not caught like Neil Hamilton but dripping in lobbying cash; look at how our politicians our liars and perjurers from Jonathan Aitken to Peter Mandelson's mortgage fraud; look at the way the party conferences are funded; look at the way Brexit was funded by Russia; look at how Liam Fox has to resign in shame but is allowed back in; look at the contaminated blood scandal; look at the renewable heat incentive scandal in NI and how we reward Arlene Foster for her involvement in it by giving her power. And that's only the half of it.

Where Brexiteers are deluding themselves is that the UK will be in any way an improvement. Brex**itters have spent too long complaining about relatively minor flaws and differences in the EU to notice how our national system of government is stuck in the 18th Century and is not remotely fit for purpose and is run by spivs, non-entities, idiots and crooks.

This is who you've handed power back to. You're never going to see that power nor the benefit of it.

Quite liked this Trainspotting inspired rant,apart from the sentence which I''ve highlighted.

FYI, Jeremy Corbyn is the (twice now) democratically elected leader of the Labour party.At the last general election,only last year in 2017,in case you'd forgotten already,JC took the Labour party from being 20% behind in the polls, to a position on polling day where Labour would now be HMG if they'd only won 15 more parliamenary seats.

If there is to be any hope for a solution to the present impasse with the EU it rests with the election of the Labour party in a general election under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership asap.Bring it on.
Choose life.Choose Jeremy Corbyn.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

The EU accounts are, literally a law unto themselves in that they have their own funded investigators and litigators - and seemingly unique vocabulary on what is an error or irregularity that is known as a fraud in laymans' language. They have re-written the rule book and seemingly got people to accept their explanations of why they can't be INDEPENDENTLY audited but have to keep it all in house and only allow access to limited areas.

I am not deluded into thinking the UK Guv is clean or perfect - far from it - and I vote according to that; never for Amess or local tories - nor for JC's clowns.
I chose not to accept to continue to allow the EU excesses and should there ever be an opportunity to vote for a better form of representation than we have now then I will opt for that too................not just suggest "it could be worse" or "they are all poor" and carry on.

I'm also all for improving the EU. It's not perfect but it's shooting ourselves in the foot to give up its many advantages for its flaws which are essentially all replicated if not bigger in the UK.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Quite liked this Trainspotting inspired rant,apart from the sentence which I''ve highlighted.

FYI, Jeremy Corbyn is the (twice now) democratically elected leader of the Labour party.At the last general election,only last year in 2017,in case you'd forgotten already,JC took the Labour party from being 20% behind in the polls, to a position on polling day where Labour would now be HMG if they'd only won 15 more parliamenary seats.

If there is to be any hope for a solution to the present impasse with the EU it rests with the election of the Labour party in a general election under Jeremy Corbyn's leadership asap.Bring it on.
Choose life.Choose Jeremy Corbyn.

He might be democratically elected within the cult that is the Labour party but he's still useless.

Anyone half competent would have smashed May rather than got themselves in a position where they were 20% behind in the first place.

If there's any hope for a solution to the present issue, it rests with Labour ditching him and presenting a viable alternative. Corbyn has probably done more than any Tory Brex**itter to put us in the position we're in. The Labour party had the power to hold the government to account on the ominshambles that is their Brexit policy but he's repeatedly failed to do so. History will judge him (and his sycophants) as harshly as they judge the Tories.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

I'm also all for improving the EU. It's not perfect but it's shooting ourselves in the foot to give up its many advantages for its flaws which are essentially all replicated if not bigger in the UK.

What is it YB? You post that the EU is audited etc as if it is all above board and then a few posts later you seem to be accepting that it isn't?
AND as Tangers points out JC is the legitimate leader of the LP. The process that has put Junker, Barnier and Tusk in place is NOT democratic is it?

 

[rigsby]

I wanted to leave the EU before the referendum campaign, so any lies told by either side made no difference. The only reason the brexit promises could or will be broken is that the majority of parliament wants to remain and the PM, apart from being a remainer, is far too weak for leadership.
The whole political class is betraying the result of the referendum apart from the reported 40 Tory mp's who have written to the 1922 committee. We should all be scared as they are showing us that they couldn't care less what we think and will do as they please.

I haven’t met a Brexit voter yet who made their decisions based on any campaign in 2016. Like you they know how corrupt it all is and want no part of it.

As for ‘They may be corrupt and bad but we are better off staying’...Look up the term ‘Stockholm Syndrome’

 

[rigsby]

While I agree with a lot of what you have to say, I can't possibly agree with your last sentence.In my own lifetime in Spain I have seen at first hand the benefits of Spain's membership of the EU:
These include the rationalisation of residence/work permits/pension rights/ free health treatment/ etc for EU nationals like me.I would also argue that Spain's membership of the EU in 1986 and the election of a Socialist government here in the early 80's, put the final nails in the coffin of the Franco era.

A similar case can be put forward for the positive aspects of the UK's membership of the EU,though I don't think it's appropriate for me to make it here.Suffice it to say that YB's post above is relevant.

We have all seen and payed for Spain’s benefits to the EU.....that’s why we voted out

 

[Another Surrey Shrimper]

He might be democratically elected within the cult that is the Labour party but he's still useless.

Anyone half competent would have smashed May rather than got themselves in a position where they were 20% behind in the first place.

If there's any hope for a solution to the present issue, it rests with Labour ditching him and presenting a viable alternative. Corbyn has probably done more than any Tory Brex**itter to put us in the position we're in. The Labour party had the power to hold the government to account on the ominshambles that is their Brexit policy but he's repeatedly failed to do so. History will judge him (and his sycophants) as harshly as they judge the Tories.

do you view all political parties as cults or just one? 600,000+ members is a very big cult.
Ditching Corbyn to become a viable alternative is not an opinion backed up by stats - the 2017 GE saw the biggest vote increase since 1945 so stats would indicate that sticking with him would provide a viable alternative rather than unpicking the changes that lead to a massive rise in members and vote share.

 

[Bielzibubz]

While I agree with a lot of what you have to say, I can't possibly agree with your last sentence.In my own lifetime in Spain I have seen at first hand the benefits of Spain's membership of the EU:
These include the rationalisation of residence/work permits/pension rights/ free health treatment/ etc for EU nationals like me.I would also argue that Spain's membership of the EU in 1986 and the election of a Socialist government here in the early 80's, put the final nails in the coffin of the Franco era.

A similar case can be put forward for the positive aspects of the UK's membership of the EU,though I don't think it's appropriate for me to make it here.Suffice it to say that YB's post above is relevant.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. You cannot compare Spain to the UK in social, economic, financial or political terms whatsoever. You also cannot compare the the benefits or disadvantages of one countries membership of the EU to another. One size does not and never will fit all. That's why a federalist and centralised Europe made up of what is now 27 independent sovereign nations as envisioned and mandated by the Mastericht treaty will never ever work and why like I, like Rigsby, have wanted out for years before the referendum was even put on the table.

I was backing Daniel Hannon back in 93 when he became what can now be considered the architect of the leave/referendum campaign. You do myself and many others a massive disservice when you glibly talk of our supposed gullibility and lack of understanding of the issues at hand.

 

[dcblue]

Can I ask why?[/

Fishing, farming, industry, education, immigration, health and energy are all in a much worse state due to EU dictates.
Unelected commission in Brussels, powerless mep puppets in a so called EU parliament.
Also way back in 1975 I was naive enough to believe Ted Heath that it was only ever going to be a trading block so I voted to stay. We didn't have the means back then to research the information. It didn't take long to realise that he had lied about the food prices being lower, never mind the EEC would never be a political union.
However, whilst I was working, I am sorry to say I didn't really pay much attention to politics, but when I retired I took an interest and realised what a mess the country was in. In my opinion the only solution was to ditch the EU, get control and then sort out our own government.If we don't achieve this then the future is very bleak.

If politicians, for over 40 years, have felt the need to lie about the influence of the EU over us, then I would suggest that is reason enough to get out because that influence will only increase, and at a faster pace. You may think that is ok but I happen to think our country deserves much better and will not change my mind because of scare stories about the economy, medicines, cars borders or anything else they can think up. None of these would be a problem if there was the political will to do so.

 

[rigsby]

Love the way remoaners blame Cameron. “ I respect democracy, it’s just some people don’t deserve a vote.”

Same people have spent years blaming Thatcher for all life’s failures.

We voted out because of the EU. Cameron had no choice after they laughed in his face when he tried for a better deal. So you can thank the smug men in Brussels. It’s their actions and corruption which will see the end of the EU.... They know it and are desperate, their actions prove it.

If leaving the EU is such a disaster why don’t the EU let us go quietly and prove to everyone how bad it is all alone..... That way they would never have to fight another referendum in the other 27 countries.....They won’t because they know we will not only be better, we will actually prove what a scam the whole thing has been.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

What is it YB? You post that the EU is audited etc as if it is all above board and then a few posts later you seem to be accepting that it isn't?
AND as Tangers points out JC is the legitimate leader of the LP. The process that has put Junker, Barnier and Tusk in place is NOT democratic is it?

The EU is audited but not perfect. That’s hardly mutually exclusive.

Tusk was elected. Cameron, your democratically elected leader, voted for him.

Juncker was elected by your democratically elected representative in the European Parliament.

Barnier was appointed by and reports to democratically elected representatives who have given him a mandate, similar to how the unelected Oliver Robbins is the main person in the UK negotiations and reports to May.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

YB, really???? The accounting by the EU of the EU is a farce and again you excuse it as "not perfect" which would be ok IF they (the EU) allowed themselves to be properly audited - ever - but they won't, haven't in the past, if they did then the "warts and all" would be out in the open and then it could be dealt with and then a better place forward might be possible.

The elections, often of sole candidates, to EU positions is about as democratic as Putin's! or FIFA's processes. My understanding is that leaders (such as DC) HAVE to vote even if there is just one candidate.

 

[Benfleet A1]

The EU is audited and is accountable in various ways to the European Parliament and national governments. It's not perfect but where the democratic deficit is that the UK Parliament does not hold it's government ministers and representatives to account for their decisions made in Europe. This is a flaw in the UK system of government which is unfit for the 21st Century.

Whilst there is some truth in your description of the EU, how on earth is the UK an improvement on this?

Just look at the UK and our second chamber; our constitutional mess with regional devolution; look at how secondary legislation is passed in the UK; look at how our election results are not proportional; look at how corrupt the system of patronage and honours is; look at the MPs expenses scandal; look at the influence of the whips; look at how the opposition party are led by Jeremy Corbyn; look at how Chris Grayling can be a government minister despite his spectacular failings as Minister for Work and Pensions, Justice Secretary and Transport Secretary; look at how a cartoon anarchronism like Jacob Rees-Mogg or Arlene Foster can have PM May u-turning; look at every single government IT contract spiralling out of budget; look at the Windrush scandal; look at how Blair lied to Parliament over WMD and took the country to war on a lie; look at how we sold arms to Iraq before that; look at the child sex abuse scandals and how we failed to protect kids from monsters like Jimmy Savile; look at cash for questions and MPs like Neil Hamilton and the later scandal of cash for influence; look at all those not caught like Neil Hamilton but dripping in lobbying cash; look at how our politicians our liars and perjurers from Jonathan Aitken to Peter Mandelson's mortgage fraud; look at the way the party conferences are funded; look at the way Brexit was funded by Russia; look at how Liam Fox has to resign in shame but is allowed back in; look at the contaminated blood scandal; look at the renewable heat incentive scandal in NI and how we reward Arlene Foster for her involvement in it by giving her power. And that's only the half of it.

Where Brexiteers are deluding themselves is that the UK will be in any way an improvement. Brex**itters have spent too long complaining about relatively minor flaws and differences in the EU to notice how our national system of government is stuck in the 18th Century and is not remotely fit for purpose and is run by spivs, non-entities, idiots and crooks.

This is who you've handed power back to. You're never going to see that power nor the benefit of it.

Wow, and I thought I had the hump because of the traffic.

 

[THE SEVENTIES NORTH BANK]

So some political experts are saying that the EU are pushing May into a corner to go for the extra time thing, keeping us in the EU and still contributing for ages. One suggested that maybe they are hoping that the delay will give time for May to be ousted and a new Conservative leader, or a general election and Corbyn, and more chance of a second vote, which the EU is praying for.