Brexit negotiations thread

[Tangled up in Blue]

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45897253

Will there be a year long extension to the transition period and does it really matter given that a solution to the NI backstop problem is unlikely to be found,even given an extra year?

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

I remember the 1975 referendum well thanks.I voted in it.

I also remember Quadrohenia well.I used to know quite a few mods.I never knew one who drove himself off a cliff though. Great movie though,despite the ending.

In answer to your question refenda are profoundly undemocratic in themselves.That's why they're were so popular with dictators like Hitler etc.They are not a good way of solving complex issues. As you know the only reason Cameron agreed to hold a referendum in the first place was because, smug git that he was,he thought he'd win it. and unite the Tory party behind him in doing so.That worked well didn't it?

The 3016 referendum had a clear result.The reasons for the narrow leave majority were various and complex.But it would be profoundly undemocratic not to respect that majority by holding yet another referendum now..That why both the Tories and Labour were in favour of leave in their 2017 election manifestos.That's why we're in the mess we're in now,I'm afraid having another referendum won't undo the current mess ,it would just give the message to the electorate that they made the wrong decision in 2016.Which they did.
They should never have been asked to decide in the first place, unless the government of the day was prepared to accept their verdict. Since the UK is a representative democracy, I'd suggest it's better to to let the UK's elected representatives themselves try and get us out of the mess which has been created.Mainly by the Tory government but also by the British people themselves.

Agree with your argument about the idea of using referenda to decide on extremely complex issues. Profoundly disagree with your outright refutation of a second vote. This is NOT a rerun of the 2016 vote. I was upset and disappointed by the June poll but I wouldn't be on here complaining if what we were promised in 2016, anywhere near ressembled what we are likely to end up with. It's pointless referring to Labour and Tory 2017 election manifesto's...........at that time there was absolutely no hint of the mess we were going to find ourselves. The public were clearly deceived in 2016, the Brexit which was promised, we now understand, was undeliverable. The Brexit achieved will either please a small minority but wreck the country's economy. Or will please virtually no one and will follow the principle of Brexit in name only...........there is NO OTHER SOLUTION. I would argue that not poposing another vote on the clear stark choices which face the nation is profoundly undemocratic. To blindly carry on, without the chance of reflection, regardless of the now known consequences is complete folly. It is a folly that has sunk into a large number Labour Party members, it clearly hasn't arrived down near Barcelona yet! Even Corbyn doesn't rule out the chance of a second vote.......but there again, nothing is ruled out by him, for fear of puting people off the possibility of voting Labour.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Agree with your argument about the idea of using referenda to decide on extremely complex issues. Profoundly disagree with your outright refutation of a second vote. This is NOT a rerun of the 2016 vote. I was upset and disappointed by the June poll but I wouldn't be on here complaining if what we were promised in 2016, anywhere near ressembled what we are likely to end up with. It's pointless referring to Labour and Tory 2017 election manifesto's...........at that time there was absolutely no hint of the mess we were going to find ourselves. The public were clearly deceived in 2016, the Brexit which was promised, we now understand, was undeliverable. The Brexit achieved will either please a small minority but wreck the country's economy. Or will please virtually no one and will follow the principle of Brexit in name only...........there is NO OTHER SOLUTION. I would argue that not poposing another vote on the clear stark choices which face the nation is profoundly undemocratic. To blindly carry on, without the chance of reflection, regardless of the now known consequences is complete folly. It is a folly that has sunk into a large number Labour Party members, it clearly hasn't arrived down near Barcelona yet! Even Corbyn doesn't rule out the chance of a second vote.......but there again, nothing is ruled out by him, for fear of puting people off the possibility of voting Labour.

Yogi,the political reality is that there won't be a second referendum,whether on the terms of Mrs May's eventual "deal " with the EU or anything else.I happen to think that the only way out of the current impasse ifs for a general election.So does the leadership of the Labour party.

BTW,I haven't been a member of the Labour party for some considerable time now.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

TUIB can I just ask how a general election would change the Brexit situation, in your view?

 

[MK Shrimper]

TUIB can I just ask how a general election would change the Brexit situation, in your view?

Sorry to butt in, but if Labour win then the Ireland problem goes away as we'd stay in the Customs Union.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Sorry to butt in, but if Labour win then the Ireland problem goes away as we'd stay in the Customs Union.

That's correct and is IMO the best possible option.

 

[MK Shrimper]

That's correct and is IMO the best possible option.

Second best. The best possible option is remain in the EU.

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...a-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Sorry to butt in, but if Labour win then the Ireland problem goes away as we'd stay in the Customs Union.

Slight problem being that this decision would need to be a manifesto commitment and would be discussed at length in any election campaign. This is effectively BINO max, as the UK would lose control over trade policy. Without opening the debate, my point is that I don’t think it can be taken for granted that the electorate would go with this

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...a-s-brexit-grudge-could-cost-u-k-1-7-trillion

So much scope for cobblers in that article we could fill Sixfields twice over

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Yogi,the political reality is that there won't be a second referendum,whether on the terms of Mrs May's eventual "deal " with the EU or anything else.I happen to think that the only way out of the current impasse ifs for a general election.So does the leadership of the Labour party.

BTW,I haven't been a member of the Labour party for some considerable time now.

Whether a current member of the Labour Party or not you will still carry on fighting and arguing for the election of a Corbyn government even though there's little chance it will happen. In the same way I shall carry on arguing for a second vote even though there may be only little hope of it occuring. I'm afraid I don't go along at all with your hypothesis of a General Election sorting out this mess. In my view we risk ending up with a similar inconclusive result to the one we have at the moment. Even, by hazard, we end up with a Labour majority, from the sound of it we'll finish with a soft Brexit..............a BINO. With a Tory majority we'd be likely to get a harder Brexit. Which ever way, no one but a few will be happy. Sadly, the country will remain as totally divided as it is ............ thank you Mr Cameron.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Slight problem being that this decision would need to be a manifesto commitment and would be discussed at length in any election campaign. This is effectively BINO max, as the UK would lose control over trade policy. Without opening the debate, my point is that I don’t think it can be taken for granted that the electorate would go with this

Isn't "free" trade tied in with "free" movement of labour/residence/benefits etc? And as such I can only think that BINO on any party's GE election manifesto would be very unlikely to promote a successful run into a majority government.

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Isn't "free" trade tied in with "free" movement of labour/residence/benefits etc? And as such I can only think that BINO on any party's GE election manifesto would be very unlikely to promote a successful run into a majority government.

Only inside the EU. Free trade agreements between other countries, or with the EU by other countries, don’t come with unlimited free movement.

 

[Massimo Giovanni]

Only inside the EU. Free trade agreements between other countries, or with the EU by other countries, don’t come with unlimited free movement.

Yes, an unelectable situation then?

 

[dcblue]

Whether a current member of the Labour Party or not you will still carry on fighting and arguing for the election of a Corbyn government even though there's little chance it will happen. In the same way I shall carry on arguing for a second vote even though there may be only little hope of it occuring. I'm afraid I don't go along at all with your hypothesis of a General Election sorting out this mess. In my view we risk ending up with a similar inconclusive result to the one we have at the moment. Even, by hazard, we end up with a Labour majority, from the sound of it we'll finish with a soft Brexit..............a BINO. With a Tory majority we'd be likely to get a harder Brexit. Which ever way, no one but a few will be happy. Sadly, the country will remain as totally divided as it is ............ thank you Mr Cameron.

Mr Cameron is not the reason the country is divided. I would suggest that 40 years of lies about the EEC and then the EU from our politicians has had much more impact on any divisions. Most people don't like being lied to and the normal response is to react in some manner to counter those lies. The result was the brexit vote.
Nearly all the comments on this thread are about the economy. The vote was about much more than that for the people who voted leave.
The so called peoples vote campaigners are still lying to us with constant fear mongering, and again all about the economy. I, for one, am tired of hearing all their cobblers and am getting angrier by the day. Even the pro brexit Tories are no better as all they do is talk but do nothing. If they were serious there would be sufficient letters into the 1922 committee to try and get rid of May.
To be honest, with no grandchildren to worry about, I'm getting to the stage that I don't care what happens and if brexit is betrayed then future generations will suffer the awful consequences.
How anyone can consider being part of the EU is a positive thing is beyond me.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Mr Cameron is not the reason the country is divided. I would suggest that 40 years of lies about the EEC and then the EU from our politicians has had much more impact on any divisions. Most people don't like being lied to and the normal response is to react in some manner to counter those lies. The result was the brexit vote.
Nearly all the comments on this thread are about the economy. The vote was about much more than that for the people who voted leave.
The so called peoples vote campaigners are still lying to us with constant fear mongering, and again all about the economy. I, for one, am tired of hearing all their cobblers and am getting angrier by the day. Even the pro brexit Tories are no better as all they do is talk but do nothing. If they were serious there would be sufficient letters into the 1922 committee to try and get rid of May.
To be honest, with no grandchildren to worry about, I'm getting to the stage that I don't care what happens and if brexit is betrayed then future generations will suffer the awful consequences.
How anyone can consider being part of the EU is a positive thing is beyond me.

Whilst I may deeply disagree with your view, I do understand and respect it. Yes, for me, like yourself, our link to the EU is to do with far more than just economics. I have talked about the illogicality of a deal which still ties us to the EU and leaves us in a worse situation than we presently find ourselves............'pay without say.'
In a way, I can understand your anger because you were lied to in 2016, the kind of Brexit promised was never going to be deliverable. I'm a little surprised you wouldn't favour a second vote of clarification, now that we have more knowledge about the real choices. One of the options should certainly be leaving the EU with no deal (which I assume is what you want?) as should be the possibility of remaining. If your idea of leaving was passed by the majority, I would accept it totally as the will of the people.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Only inside the EU. Free trade agreements between other countries, or with the EU by other countries, don’t come with unlimited free movement.

I think you'd have to wait for the individual negotiations to see that. Wouldn't the Indian governmeat risk being a little more demanding in that respect?

 

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think you'd have to wait for the individual negotiations to see that. Wouldn't the Indian governmeat risk being a little more demanding in that respect?

I think we can be clear that there won’t be unlimited unrestricted free movement between India and the UK

What is highly likely is some form of smoothed, simplified visa process - possibly with visa free travel, but not to live and work - and a fast track priority regime for skilled labour exchange. Details to be decided but it wouldn’t be EU style free movement

 

[Yorkshire Blue]

Mr Cameron is not the reason the country is divided. I would suggest that 40 years of lies about the EEC and then the EU from our politicians has had much more impact on any divisions. Most people don't like being lied to and the normal response is to react in some manner to counter those lies. The result was the brexit vote.
Nearly all the comments on this thread are about the economy. The vote was about much more than that for the people who voted leave.
The so called peoples vote campaigners are still lying to us with constant fear mongering, and again all about the economy. I, for one, am tired of hearing all their cobblers and am getting angrier by the day. Even the pro brexit Tories are no better as all they do is talk but do nothing. If they were serious there would be sufficient letters into the 1922 committee to try and get rid of May.
To be honest, with no grandchildren to worry about, I'm getting to the stage that I don't care what happens and if brexit is betrayed then future generations will suffer the awful consequences.
How anyone can consider being part of the EU is a positive thing is beyond me.

The lies were about the shortcomings of the EU. The EU isn't perfect but it was continually blamed and used to distract for the shortcomings of the UK government. So much easier to blame faceless European bureaucrats who won't answer back for decisions made in Westminster.

The Brex**itters have had years to come up with viable alternatives yet have absolutely nothing constructive to offer. The likes of Davis, Johnson and Fox's only contribution is to prop up May's government by reminding us that as useless as she is it could unbelievably actually be worse if one of those charlatans were to fulfill their dream of being leader. What have they achieved? At least the ****ing useless May came up with a plan, ****-poor as it was that's still more than any of those clowns have achieved despite being given the levers of state at the Department for Exiting the EU, the Foreign Office and Trade. These ****s are so thick and lazy that they didn't understand what Cabinet was signing up to with the backstop until months later and Gove having claimed that we've had enough of experts now cries that he needs to get a legal opinion on any deal offered to cabinet.

Meanwhile the promises made by Leave have slowly but inevitably been downgraded. We've gone from being promised a land of bread and honey to promises of we're not going to starve. From promises of £350m to the NHS to promises that we're not going to run out of medication. But the promises of these bullshitters have proven to be worthlesss. Why should we believe them now all their promises have been shown to clueless? Expectations are so low that a bad deal will now be celebrated as if it was actually some sort of success.

So much time is being wasted on a handful of idiots' vanity project that could actually be spent on growing the economy, fixing the pension timebomb, solving the NHS funding crisis, ensuring energy demand can be met in the future etc - and all for what? So a few public schoolboys can reduce their tax bill?

 

[dcblue]

Whilst I may deeply disagree with your view, I do understand and respect it. Yes, for me, like yourself, our link to the EU is to do with far more than just economics. I have talked about the illogicality of a deal which still ties us to the EU and leaves us in a worse situation than we presently find ourselves............'pay without say.'
In a way, I can understand your anger because you were lied to in 2016, the kind of Brexit promised was never going to be deliverable. I'm a little surprised you wouldn't favour a second vote of clarification, now that we have more knowledge about the real choices. One of the options should certainly be leaving the EU with no deal (which I assume is what you want?) as should be the possibility of remaining. If your idea of leaving was passed by the majority, I would accept it totally as the will of the people.

I wanted to leave the EU before the referendum campaign, so any lies told by either side made no difference. The only reason the brexit promises could or will be broken is that the majority of parliament wants to remain and the PM, apart from being a remainer, is far too weak for leadership.
The whole political class is betraying the result of the referendum apart from the reported 40 Tory mp's who have written to the 1922 committee. We should all be scared as they are showing us that they couldn't care less what we think and will do as they please.