Blimey

[Beefy]

Be interesting to see if this goes to referendum over here. I can't see how it can't and if it does I don't see it getting a 'yes' vote.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Be interesting to see if this goes to referendum over here. I can't see how it can't and if it does I don't see it getting a 'yes' vote.

sorry, can't see what a referendum would be about. There is a new pact not a new treaty and anyway, the UK has not signed and doesn't appear to have the intention to sign up for it. I suppose the Eurosceptics in his party would love the opportunity to have a referendum about staying in the EU but even Cameron is not that stupid, he'd like to hold the coalition together for a while longer.

 

[canveyshrimper]

sorry, can't see what a referendum would be about. There is a new pact not a new treaty and anyway, the UK has not signed and doesn't appear to have the intention to sign up for it. I suppose the Eurosceptics in his party would love the opportunity to have a referendum about staying in the EU but even Cameron is not that stupid, he'd like to hold the coalition together for a while longer.

Beefy I believe works/lives in Dublin, and it's Ireland he is referring to when he talks of a referndum.

 

[Shrimpers are Magic]

Been watching a lot of this on the box today - opinion is divided as you would expect. The UK's demands were thrown out by France and Germany without a second thought. it's clear to me that the UK is not really thought off as a major player in the plans of the euro bureaucrats so maybe this is the beginning of a long goodbye?

 

[Beefy]

Beefy I believe works/lives in Dublin, and it's Ireland he is referring to when he talks of a referndum.

Indeed. Sorry, I was referring to Ireland.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Indeed. Sorry, I was referring to Ireland.

OK, hardly qualified to talk about what is going on in the UK let alone Ireland. Interesting if there is a referrendum in Ireland, will keep my eyes open for developments

 

[Swiss Tony]

Been watching a lot of this on the box today - opinion is divided as you would expect. The UK's demands were thrown out by France and Germany without a second thought. it's clear to me that the UK is not really thought off as a major player in the plans of the euro bureaucrats so maybe this is the beginning of a long goodbye?

Lets hope so.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Lets hope so.

Why?:unsure:

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

Why?:unsure:

There's something very Spanish, in showing a red rag to a bull.:winking:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

There's something very Spanish, in showing a red rag to a bull.:winking:

As it happens,the most intelligent comments I've seen (so far)on recent events, are those by Paddy Ashdown:-

"The deep and sustained anti-European prejudice of some in the Tory party backed by anti-European papers has now created anti-British prejudice in Europe, especially in Paris.

"There will be a huge price to pay and, as a consequence, the foreign policy priorities of this country for the past 40 years has gone down the plughole in a single night. That foreign policy has now been hijacked by the Eurosceptics in the Conservative party aided by a prime minister who was not prepared to stand up for the national interest. As a consequence we have lost control of the European agenda and the prime minister has lost control of the demands for a referendum."
(My italics).

 

[Neil_F]

I don't understand all the people that are complaining about a lack of influence. Why would Britain want to integrate itself further with a failing currency union? Is there anything these people wouldn't agree to because it seems their main objective is to keep a seat at the top table rather than consider whether the EU and its institutions are good for British interests.

One other point on this, the agreement does absolutely nothing to resolve the problem with the Euro. France and Germany remain in total denial about the problems. As long as that is the case the Euro will continue to lurch from crises to crises.

 

[yogi bear up the cagire]

As it happens,the most intelligent comments I've seen (so far)on recent events, are those by Paddy Ashdown:-

"The deep and sustained anti-European prejudice of some in the Tory party backed by anti-European papers has now created anti-British prejudice in Europe, especially in Paris.

"There will be a huge price to pay and, as a consequence, the foreign policy priorities of this country for the past 40 years has gone down the plughole in a single night. That foreign policy has now been hijacked by the Eurosceptics in the Conservative party aided by a prime minister who was not prepared to stand up for the national interest. As a consequence we have lost control of the European agenda and the prime minister has lost control of the demands for a referendum."
(My italics).

Have to say that, as an old Liberal party worker and Lib Dem before I left, I find this all very strange and, if I was still involved, very worrying. In all my years of allegiance policies came and went but one thing that remained a solid and unwavering plank was our conviction of being at the centre of European development. To hear Nick Clegg as an apologist for Cameron's eurosceptic line, is something that is difficult to swallow.
With a crystal ball, what is the future? 2012 UKIP disolves and integrates into the Conservative Party. 2013 after bitter wrangling the Lib Dems split, Nick Clegg leading the new National Lib Dem party. The following General Election both Lib Dem parties are annihilated at the polls. Nat Libs hold a seat in Bolton and Huddersfield, where the Tories stand down in appreciation for their help in the coalition? déja-vu???.......................I hope it's not history repeating itself!!!!

 

[Neil_F]

Neil F

I've seen a couple of references now that a FTT imposed on the City at a rate of 0.05 per transaction would generate 59 billion pounds in revenue.
Care to comment?

Barna, I've tried to find the source for this but without any luck. Do you happen to know what it is?

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

I don't understand all the people that are complaining about a lack of influence. Why would Britain want to integrate itself further with a failing currency union? Is there anything these people wouldn't agree to because it seems their main objective is to keep a seat at the top table rather than consider whether the EU and its institutions are good for British interests.

One other point on this, the agreement does absolutely nothing to resolve the problem with the Euro. France and Germany remain in total denial about the problems. As long as that is the case the Euro will continue to lurch from crises to crises.

In the immediate future there's likely to be a two track Europe with 26 countries in the fast lane and only one country in the slow lane,the UK.As Ed.Miliband(and others)have pointed out:-This is a terrible outcome for British business, British jobs and for Britain."
My hope (and my guess)is that Cameron will have to start eating some humble pie to get the UK's "seat at the top table" back, in March.
I think you're on firmer ground as regards your comments on the Euro.I'm broadly in agreement with most of the comments you made about the Euro earlier in this thread.I think at some point in the future(March again?)Germany will have to let the ECB act as a lender of last resort, rather than just relying on bail out funds and the IMF,as at present.It's also possible that by March,some of the weaker Eurozone countries(eg Greece)might be encouraged to default.This is all however pure speculation at the moment.
What is not speculation however is that if the Eurozone countries go into a double dip recession early next year then the UK's economy will follow.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Barna, I've tried to find the source for this but without any luck. Do you happen to know what it is?

Neil F,
No,but I've seen two references to this figure recently.By the editor of the New Statesman on last week's Question Time and by Paul Mason,Newsnight's economics editor,a couple of weeks ago.
Thanks for looking though.:thumbsup:

 

[canveyshrimper]

In the immediate future there's likely to be a two track Europe with 25 countries in the fast lane and only one country in the slow lane,the UK.As Ed.Miliband(and others)have pointed out:-This is a terrible outcome for British business, British jobs and for Britain."
My hope (and my guess)is that Cameron will have to start eating some humble pie to get the UK's "seat at the top table" back, in March.
I think you're on firmer ground as regards your comments on the Euro.I'm broadly in agreement with most of the comments you made about the Euro earlier in this thread.I think at some point in the future(March again?)Germany will have to let the ECB act as a lender of last resort, rather than just relying on bail out funds and the IMF,as at present.It's also possible that by March,some of the weaker Eurozone countries(eg Greece)might be encouraged to default.This is all however pure speculation at the moment.
What is not speculation however is that if the Eurozone countries go into a double dip recession early next year then the UK's economy will follow.

26 surely?

One question about this so called "treaty" before it can be ratified, it must ge to a referendum in some countries such as Ireland, The Netherlands and possibly France. What happens if the people of those countries reject it? Do they keep going back until they get the result they want like they did with Lisbon.

As for the UK existing without the bonds of the EU, Norway & Switzerland seem to exist well enough on the outside.

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

26 surely?

One question about this so called "treaty" before it can be ratified, it must ge to a referendum in some countries such as Ireland, The Netherlands and possibly France. What happens if the people of those countries reject it? Do they keep going back until they get the result they want like they did with Lisbon.

As for the UK existing without the bonds of the EU, Norway & Switzerland seem to exist well enough on the outside.

Correct.:blush:(Now you know why I failed O level Maths).:dunce:
My understanding is that referendums are only required in Sweden,Hungary and the Czech Republic.It's a "compact" rather than a treaty so doesn't trigger the need for a referendum in the countries you mention.
As to your other point,you'll no doubt be aware that Norway has vast natural resources, including oil and Switzerland is effectively the banking capital of the world.
I would expect to see the City's influence gradually decline if eg in the future Eurobonds can only be traded among Eurozone countries.Basically,we're in uncharted waters here and what will happen in the future is anyone's guess.One thing you can expect Germany and France to do,is go after the speculators in the bond markets,who have caused so much of the Euro's recent problems.Germany, the main competitor to the City in the European time zone,is already committed to implementing an FTT.

 

[Neil_F]

In the immediate future there's likely to be a two track Europe with 26 countries in the fast lane and only one country in the slow lane,the UK.As Ed.Miliband(and others)have pointed out:-This is a terrible outcome for British business, British jobs and for Britain."
.

Fast lane to what though???

The EU's response to the financial crisis and the emerging economies has been to retreat towards protectionism and a total failure to fix their monetary union. The UK remains a global trading centre and one of the most internationally focused countries in the EU whilst the Eurozone is currently on the path to ruin and causing another global recession.

How exactly does the UK opting out of a new Treaty on fiscal issues and financial regulation cost jobs in the UK? That's what I don't understand at all.

There seem to be a large group of people who think that the UK should just go along with everything the EU says because then we "maintain our influence." Glossing over the fact that a party who always complies has no negotiating power, I simply want to know is there anything the EU could propose that the "influence crowd" wouldn't sign up for?

 

[canveyshrimper]

Correct.:blush:(Now you know why I failed O level Maths).:dunce:
My understanding is that referendums are only required in Sweden,Hungary and the Czech Republic.It's a "compact" rather than a treaty so doesn't trigger the need for a referendum in the countries you mention.
As to your other point,you'll no doubt be aware that Norway has vast natural resources, including oil and Switzerland is effectively the banking capital of the world.
I would expect to see the City's influence gradually decline if eg in the future Eurobonds can only be traded among Eurozone countries.Basically,we're in uncharted waters here and what will happen in the future is anyone's guess.One thing you can expect Germany and France to do,is go after the speculators in the bond markets,who have caused so much of the Euro's recent problems.Germany, the main competitor to the City in the European time zone,is already committed to implementing an FTT.

Sweden aren't part of the eurozone. I thought if there were any new treaties these have to be ratified in countries such as Ireland where such treaties are amendments or alterations to their constitutions. This was certainly the case after Lisbon, which after all was only a tidying up exercise. :unsure:

 

[Tangled up in Blue]

Sweden aren't part of the eurozone. I thought if there were any new treaties these have to be ratified in countries such as Ireland where such treaties are amendments or alterations to their constitutions. This was certainly the case after Lisbon, which after all was only a tidying up exercise. :unsure:

I know.But they're one of the 9 EU countries who did provisionally agree to ratify the "compact" (along with Hungary and the Cezchs)subject to holding referendums(or getting Parliamentary approval) in their respective countries.
The point is that the agreement reached last week is not a new treaty as such.Nor apparently does it qualify as an amendment or alteration which would trigger automatic referendums in countries like Ireland.